# Are Modern Humans the Result of Genocide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510 "2008-05-16T03:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/1 "2008-05-16T03:04:33Z")
I was shocked when I first heard this theory on cable tv. But it goes something like this: Thousands of years ago there were modern homo sapiens and neanderthals roaming the earth together. Then suddenly there were only homo sapiens. What happened to the Neanderthals? Some say they interbred with homo sapiens. But some say this was not possible. So if we accept the second premise, something catastrophic happened to the neanderthals as they were on the earth with homo sapiens. Homo sapiens were certainly more intelligent than the neanderthals. So is it possible homo sapiens used their intelligence and skill to kill off all the remaining neanderthals? Shocking thought if true. But how possible is it? BTW, I know you all like cites to arguments. So I offer [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal) Wikipedia article. I only read part of it. So if anyone finds anything in it with a more thorough reading that might be important to my question, don’t hesitate to offer it. Thank you in advance to all who reply 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/2 "2008-05-16T03:13:02Z")
I’d consider it near certain. Not because of some grand humanity-wide strategy, but simply because they couldn’t compete, we shared the same ecological niche, and primitive humans wouldn’t have the moral compunctions we might. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/3 "2008-05-16T03:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=Jim B.] Homo sapiens were certainly more intelligent than the neanderthals. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/4 "2008-05-16T03:19:21Z")
I could think a few reasons for why this might be controversial… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/5 "2008-05-16T03:27:49Z")
This idea has been around a long time. We really don’t know for sure, but it does seem rather coincidental that Neanderthals survived for over 100,000 years, only to go extinct a few thousand years after we showed up on the scene. But genocide would be the wrong word, assuming we were the cause. It almost certainly wouldn’t have been deliberate, and they weren’t the same species as we were/are, although obviously closely related. What looks like happened, as far as we can tell, is that there was some interaction between the two species-- some of it peaceful, some of it not. Neanderthals seem to have adopted some of the more advanced tools of modern humans. Whether they traded for them, were taught how to make them by the moderns, or found them and figured out how to make copies is impossible to know. It’s also possible that we brought diseases into Europe that the Neanderthals weren’t immune to. Sound familiar? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/6 "2008-05-16T03:35:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Jim B. > Homo sapiens were certainly more intelligent than the neanderthals. [QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Cite? [/QUOTE] I don’t have too much to cite for this. I just know on the cable show (I forget exactly what channel it was on), they said Neanderthal’s weapons were far inferior to ours. And they said they were dumber than us, I am pretty sure. Also from the Wikipedia [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal) I gave they say > [@](#): > > The idea that Neanderthals lacked complex language was widespread… and > [@](#): > > Edward Rubin of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, California states that recent genome testing of Neanderthals suggests human and Neanderthal DNA are some 99.5 percent to nearly 99.9 percent identical Both quotes show how modern humans and Neanderthals were different, esp. in intelligence. That is all I have for now. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/7 "2008-05-16T03:54:49Z")
We should begin war crimes tribunals immediately ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/8 "2008-05-16T03:57:43Z")
[QUOTE=Jim B.] I don’t have too much to cite for this. I just know on the cable show (I forget exactly what channel it was on), they said Neanderthal’s weapons were far inferior to ours. [/quote] Roman weapons were far superior to the weapons of the Gauls. What does say about their relevant intelligence? > [@](#): > > And they said they were dumber than us, I am pretty sure. Pretty sure? > [@wiki](#): > > The idea that Neanderthals lacked complex language **was** widespread… And issue is less secure today. We just do not know if they used complex language. > [@wiki](#): > > Edward Rubin of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, California states that recent genome testing of Neanderthals suggests human and Neanderthal DNA are some 99.5 percent to nearly 99.9 percent identical I fail to see what this has to do with intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/9 "2008-05-16T04:00:04Z")
Well, as I’ve said, that is all I have to offer for now. Does anyone else have anything to add? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/10 "2008-05-16T04:09:35Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Cite? [/QUOTE] A hundred thousand years or so of no innovation from the Neanderthals comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/11 "2008-05-16T05:01:51Z")
It is generally thought that Neanderthals were less intelligent than moder humans. But it’s a little more complicated than that. Anatomically modern humans show up in the fossil record about 200k years ago. They look like us, not like Erectus or Neanderthals. But they had the same tool kit that the Neanderthals had, and that stayed that way for about 100k years. Then something seems to have happened to our species, and our behavior became much more complex. Suddenly you find art, tailored clothing, fish hooks, and tools made from antler and bone (not just stone). Whether that was a genetic mutation or a cultural advance, we really don’t know. Neanderthals didn’t seem to make that leap. There is no telling if a Neanderthal had grown up with modern humans if he would have exhibited any mental deficiencies or if he would have just blended in fine. Keep in mind that our line split from that of the Neanderthals about 500k years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/12 "2008-05-16T08:27:44Z")
Genocide is impossible. It is a technology that was not available until recently. My memory of the evidence is that the extinction of Neaderthal man extended out over thousands to 10s of thousands of years. Going back to evolutionary basics, species will occupy and expand into a niche. Similarly, the majority of species exist on a knife edge. Put climate change, disease or a competitor into the domestic niche and oftentimes our species will tilt and fall. The evidence I have read advances that as the most likely explanation for the loss of Neanderthal Man; and the event of several adverse changes in the environment creating small but consistent pressures, over thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/13 "2008-05-16T08:36:48Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Roman weapons were far superior to the weapons of the Gauls. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/14 "2008-05-16T10:04:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Genocide is impossible. It is a technology that was not available until recently. [/QUOTE] Incorrect. Genocide in historically common, and doesn’t require technology at all. Even chimps do it; kill all the males of another troop, kill the adult females, rape and impregnate the young females. It’s instinctive behavior in humans, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![33ID](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@33ID](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/33ID)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/15 "2008-05-16T10:58:57Z")
If there is one mistaken lesson the Holocaust industry puts forward, it is that the behaviour is rare and insane. Unfortunatly it is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/16 "2008-05-16T11:19:38Z")
Maybe our ancestors’ sudden technological leap just gave us a big survival edge, and the Neanderthals died out due to population pressures. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/17 "2008-05-16T11:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Incorrect. Genocide in historically common, and doesn’t require technology at all. Even chimps do it; kill all the males of another troop, kill the adult females, rape and impregnate the young females. It’s instinctive behavior in humans, apparently. [/QUOTE] Genocide is a big word, but I agree that the Human species is quite agressive. Just look how people in small communities behave toward their own, that are even just a bit different. Old women living alone, deformed people, retarded people, gay… It’s easy to imagine loads of scenarios how our species would react agressively towards small bands of _others_ in their vicinity. Sure, there will have been periods and places when there would have been a more peaceful co-existence but, given enough time, our agressive instincts could well have led to us exterminating the Neandertahlers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/18 "2008-05-16T13:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=sturmhauke] Maybe our ancestors’ sudden technological leap just gave us a big survival edge, and the Neanderthals died out due to population pressures. [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s a distinct possibility. There are a number of possible explanations for the extinction of the Neanderthals: wiped out by us deliberately, introduction of new diseases, outcompeted by us, they were already on the decline when we arrived, etc. It needn’t be only one reason-- it could vary from place to place or be any combination of those reasons (or others we haven’t thought of). The fossil record is very sparse, so we’re speculating on very little evidence. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/19 "2008-05-16T14:01:53Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Cite? [/QUOTE] Interesting statement, that I don’t believe **2½** will be able to cite. I can’t see a lot of support for “Roman weapons were far superior to the weapons of the Gauls. What does say about their relevant intelligence?” However, I would agree that Roman tactics and logistics were superior to those of the Gaulish tribes. The Romans had an advantage in weapons, but not far superior. It came down to tactics, planning and supplies. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/20 "2008-05-16T19:05:09Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Interesting statement, that I don’t believe **2½** will be able to cite. I can’t see a lot of support for “Roman weapons were far superior to the weapons of the Gauls. What does say about their relevant intelligence?” [/QUOTE] It’s not a good comparison to Neanderthals anyway. The whole reason that one can speak of “Roman” and “Gaul” weapons and clothing and customs is because both groups were intelligent and creative. Neanderthals just kept making the same tools, millennium after millennium. So, for that matter did the “anatomically modern humans” who were alive for most of their existence; whatever was evolving that made us so much more creative than them didn’t leave fossils ( brain differences most likely ). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510.md?page=2)