# Are Modern Humans the Result of Genocide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510 "2008-05-16T03:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/21 "2008-05-16T19:09:48Z")
Gauls shmauls… I think the point **2.5** was trying to make was that superior weapons/technology/tactics is not a good proxy for intelligence. Consider the Conquistadors/westerners v. natives if you will. Smallpox and disease aside, it was an astonishingly lopsided conflict—but I think one would be hard pressed to make a case for differing intelligence making the difference. I think genocide has something of a _mens rea_ to it. I don’t think out-competing a species to the point of extinction has that element. The extinction wasn’t organized or intentional on a wide-scale basis (I just took a spin in the TARDIS to check, so you’ll have to trust me). One band killing off its competitors is one thing, and in sum it may have lead to the extinction overall, but its happening on a relatively individual basis does not rise to the level of an intentional campaign to rid the world of Neanderthals. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/22 "2008-05-16T20:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=Rhythmdvl] Consider the Conquistadors/westerners v. natives if you will. Smallpox and disease aside, it was an astonishingly lopsided conflict—but I think one would be hard pressed to make a case for differing intelligence making the difference. The extinction wasn’t organized or intentional on a wide-scale basis (I just took a spin in the TARDIS to check, so you’ll have to trust me). One band killing off its competitors is one thing, and in sum it may have lead to the extinction overall, but its happening on a relatively individual basis does not rise to the level of an intentional campaign to rid the world of Neanderthals. [/QUOTE] I tend to agree with your assessment. I was actually just thinking about what would have happened if , hypothetically, a colony of a few hundred Homo Sapiens Sapiens (HSS) arrived in a continent populated by Neanderthals (ND), would they have wiped them out completely within a few thousand years? I’m afraid my answer is a resounding Yes. As the population of HSS grew, new tribes would have split, expanded and fought against ND tribes for territorial resources more and more as the population expanded and clashes multiplied as they spread. Whether the human advantage was faster procreation, more useful intelligence or a stronger xenophobia-induced unity is yet to be ascertained. Does anyone know what happens in the centuries after a species of ants is (accidentally) transported from one continent to another with less “aggressive” native ants\*? \*_Assuming both species of ants are adapted to roughly the same living environment, like HSS and ND certainly were._ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/23 "2008-05-16T20:52:47Z")
Well, first off Modern Humans emerged long before Neanderthals went extinct…so we certainly aren’t here as a ‘result of Genocide’ since we were ALREADY here before that. Secondly, I think the Neanderthals went extinct for the same reasons other species went extinct, and it had nothing to do with genocide. The Neanderthals were already under pressure and in a bit of a decline before modern humans arrived in their areas. Add to that the fact that modern humans and Neanderthals occupied the same niche and were in direct competition and you have the reason Neanderthals went extinct…they were out competed and driven out of the best niches, were already under pressure before that, and went extinct. This isn’t to say that modern humans and Neanderthals never clashed…they almost certainly did. But modern humans simply out competed them and drove them to extinction…the same way other species in direct competition either out competed their rivals and went on, or didn’t…and went extinct. (ed. Shame really…how cool would it be if there were still a few remnant Neanderthal populations about? How cool would it be to have a species so like us…yet so different in the way they think? BTW, as to the intelligence question…I think modern humans and Neanderthals were roughly comparable in raw intelligence. They just thought in different ways. Sort of like trying to compare the intelligence of a gorilla with a chimpanzee) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/24 "2008-05-16T21:50:36Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Well, first off Modern Humans emerged long before Neanderthals went extinct…so we certainly aren’t here as a ‘result of Genocide’ since we were ALREADY here before that. [/QUOTE] **Anatomically** modern humans, not true modern humans. They looked like us, but didn’t act like us. No variation in tools, no ornaments; that sort of thing. “Behavioural modernity”, sometimes called “The Great Leap Forward” is something else, and more recent; about 50,000 years ago. In other words, when the Neanderthals started to die out. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/25 "2008-05-16T22:06:53Z")
ed…let me think about that some more before I post. I’m not sure if I agree with you on this Der. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/26 "2008-05-16T22:58:14Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] **Anatomically** modern humans, not true modern humans. They looked like us, but didn’t act like us. No variation in tools, no ornaments; that sort of thing. “Behavioural modernity”, sometimes called “The Great Leap Forward” is something else, and more recent; about 50,000 years ago. In other words, when the Neanderthals started to die out. [/QUOTE] No, that’s not quite correct. “Behaviorally modern humans” appeared more like 60 or 70k years ago, based on the latest fossil evidence. We didn’t get to Europe until about 30 or 40k years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/27 "2008-05-16T23:56:14Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Interesting statement, that I don’t believe **2½** will be able to cite. I can’t see a lot of support for “Roman weapons were far superior to the weapons of the Gauls. What does say about their relevant intelligence?” [/quote] The classic Roman gladius was adapted from Celtic designs ( even the name “gladius” is likely Celtic in origin ), either from Gaul or Iberia, so yeah, the superior weapon technology argument founders a bit ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/28 "2008-05-16T23:59:19Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Roman weapons were far superior to the weapons of the Gauls. What does say about their relevant intelligence? [/QUOTE] Not true at all. In fact, the Romans borrowed a lot of their equipment directly from Gallic or other Celtic peoples, including: Helmets: [Montefortino](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montefortino_helmet), [Coolus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolus_helmet), [Imperial Gallic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_helmet) Armor: The Romans were great users of chain mail, which was [invented by the Celts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_mail#History). Weapons: The famous Roman short sword, [the gladius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladius), originated from the Celtiberians. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/29 "2008-05-17T00:12:02Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Then something seems to have happened to our species, and our behavior became much more complex. Suddenly you find art, tailored clothing, fish hooks, and tools made from antler and bone (not just stone). Whether that was a genetic mutation or a cultural advance, we really don’t know. [/QUOTE] I think it had something to do with that big, black monolith that appeared one day. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/30 "2008-05-17T01:51:43Z")
It wasn’t just the Neanderthals, of course. Most of Asia would have been inhabited by the even more primitive _Homo erectus_ when _Homo sapiens_ first arrived. They also disappeared, most likely through competition or warfare with modern humans. (Recent evidence suggests that some may have survived until 50,000 years ago or even later.) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/31 "2008-05-17T04:07:13Z")
Considering how many other species man has obliterated, is this any worse? We’re talking the dim dark ages of brute survival here, not the modern era, and look what kind of crap we still have going on! ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/32 "2008-05-17T05:21:50Z")
Just this year a mtDNA genome study gave supporting evidence to a several year old theory that modern humans (or at least those humans from which all modern humans are descendant) were on the brink of extinction not too long before the first confrontation with Neanderthals. It doesn’t disprove any genocide scenario, but it does seem to make it an unnecessary element to explain the outcome. The very small numbers of Homo Sapiens from 70k years ago grew in number explosively. The much larger numbers of Homo Neanderthalis declined very rapidly. The climate changes of the period also led to extinctions in other genera unrelated to homo, and unlikely to engage in genocide. It is unsupported conjecture to posit facts lacking substantiation when the outcome is not materially altered by the absence of those facts. Tris ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/33 "2008-05-17T16:21:06Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] It wasn’t just the Neanderthals, of course. Most of Asia would have been inhabited by the even more primitive _Homo erectus_ when _Homo sapiens_ first arrived. They also disappeared, most likely through competition or warfare with modern humans. (Recent evidence suggests that some may have survived until 50,000 years ago or even later.) [/QUOTE] Are you sure about that for “most of Asia”? I think we have very limited fossil evidence of _H. erectus_ in Asia after 50k years ago. Certainly _H. floresiensis_ was still around when we got to the island of Flores, though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/34 "2008-05-17T17:55:04Z")
[QUOTE=Rhythmdvl] Gauls shmauls… I think the point **2.5** was trying to make was that superior weapons/technology/tactics is not a good proxy for intelligence. [/QUOTE] I got, and generally agree with, the larger point, he just picked an erroneous example to illustrate it with, and this is GD after all. I see others have come in with examples( **Tamerlane** ,I was thinking more of the _[spatha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha)_ than the _gladius_, which I think of as Celtiberian not Gallic as such, but I don’t think there was as much of a clear-cut historical distinction between Celtic groups, was there? Maille was also what I had in mind. Didn’t think of the helmets, **CHTT** ) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/35 "2008-05-18T01:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Just this year a mtDNA genome study gave supporting evidence to a several year old theory that modern humans (or at least those humans from which all modern humans are descendant) were on the brink of extinction not too long before the first confrontation with Neanderthals. [/QUOTE] You are referring to the [Toba catastrophe theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory): > [@](#): > > According to the Toba catastrophe theory, 70,000 to 75,000 years ago a supervolcanic event at Lake Toba, on Sumatra, reduced the world’s human population to 10,000 or even a mere 1,000 breeding pairs, creating a bottleneck in human evolution. The theory was proposed in 1998 by Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/36 "2008-05-18T02:03:23Z")
[QUOTE=Duckster] You are referring to the [Toba catastrophe theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory): [/QUOTE] The Toba connection is fairly tenuous, as far as I can see. But, the record of drought from 135k to 70k BC is not so tenuous, and recent analysis of African genetic heritages support a widely separated, and small population from which all modern humans are descendant. The thing is, at the time of the first interactions between modern, and ancient hominids, the patterns of population growth were already established. Homo Sapiens was already undergoing a rapid expansion, after a near extinction, and earlier varieties were at the long end of major reductions in population, some going back to periods well before the meeting. Genocide is simply not a necessary, or even particularly reasonable supposition. Interesting to me is the possibility that it was not the entire species of humans that were in such small numbers, but rather some small segment of a larger population that had an advantage so great that only their descendants survived to the current day. Any number of other “modern humans” might have lived in the same niche, but only those with the “right stuff” left their genetic heritage. Tris ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/37 "2008-05-18T02:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=Jim B.] I was shocked when I first heard this theory on cable tv. But it goes something like this: Thousands of years ago there were modern homo sapiens and neanderthals roaming the earth together. Then suddenly there were only homo sapiens. … So is it possible homo sapiens used their intelligence and skill to kill off all the remaining neanderthals? [/QUOTE] That’s not a theory. It’s a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation or even a hypothesis. But there’s no evidence and it really can’t be tested. This is a problem with crap like the “Aquatic Ape Theory”, and the “Overkill Theory\*”. Neither are Theories. They are conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation or even a hypothesis that fit some facts. Because they explain some of the facts very nicely, some accept them as “theories” when in fact thay are anything but. They sopund nice and they sound scientific but they are not scientific, since they have little or no evidence and can’t be tested. Dudes hear them on TV and think there is something to them, where in fact they are just Wild Assed Guesses. \*[Late Pleistocene extinctions - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_extinctions) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/38 "2008-05-18T08:08:33Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Just this year a mtDNA genome study gave supporting evidence to a several year old theory that modern humans (or at least those humans from which all modern humans are descendant) were on the brink of extinction not too long before the first confrontation with Neanderthals. It doesn’t disprove any genocide scenario, but it does seem to make it an unnecessary element to explain the outcome. The very small numbers of Homo Sapiens from 70k years ago grew in number explosively. The much larger numbers of Homo Neanderthalis declined very rapidly. The climate changes of the period also led to extinctions in other genera unrelated to homo, and unlikely to engage in genocide. It is unsupported conjecture to posit facts lacking substantiation when the outcome is not materially altered by the absence of those facts. Tris [/QUOTE] I read that also but didn’t the report say that it was not the entire Human race of the the time that nearly died out but that branch that remained in Africa. As I recall it was due to a temperature rise. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/39 "2008-05-18T10:33:27Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] I read that also but didn’t the report say that it was not the entire Human race of the the time that nearly died out but that branch that remained in Africa. As I recall it was due to a temperature rise. [/QUOTE] Apparently, some time before seventy thousand years ago, the branch of humans that remained in Africa included all direct ancestors of the elusive "modern human. The prior migrations were all members of other sub-species. The climate change responsible was world wide, and would have been more complex than just a rise in temperature. For one thing, the duration was tens of thousands of years. The mtDNA clock dating is not an entirely mature technology, so the speculative aspect of these theories remains. However, it is some direct evidence, which puts it in a realm not enjoyed by the “genocide” theory, which lacks any sort of direct evidence. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510/40 "2008-05-18T11:55:53Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Interesting to me is the possibility that it was not the entire species of humans that were in such small numbers, but rather some small segment of a larger population that had an advantage so great that only their descendants survived to the current day. Any number of other “modern humans” might have lived in the same niche, but only those with the “right stuff” left their genetic heritage. Tris [/QUOTE] Isn’t that reasonable, though, Tris? If an enormous amount of survival pressure were placed on our direct ancestors (proto-modern humans, I suppose) and that pressure was such that only a few thousand were capable of surviving wouldn’t I be wrong to infer that those survivors would be the absolute best of those humans? Following that, when the pressure was removed somehow (climate change, migration to a more hospitable region, etc.) future generations of those ‘hyper survivors’ would be well poised to go through explosive population growth and expansion through being able to outcompete others in the same or similar niches? Not unlike, I suppose, how we’re producing antibiotic-immune bacteria. The survivors have stronger survival traits than those that couldn’t make it through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-modern-humans-the-result-of-genocide/449510.md?page=3)