# Are most European countries socialist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 16, 2008, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808 "2008-09-16T06:48:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/21 "2008-09-16T17:18:42Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Nationalization alone doesn’t make a country Socialist, nor does state ownership (as **Usram** mentioned). Both can and have occurred in capitalist countries, e.g. Saudi Arabia nationalizing its oil industry. In this case oil and other petrochemicals are still extracted and refined to generate a profit, not meet the world’s oil needs. > > Socialism, to me, is the global overthrow of the wages and profit system and its replacement with democratically planned production and distribution of goods and services. Fair enough. My gripe is with Americans who think that anyone who advocates income redistribution is a socialist. The last time I switched on CNN (I can only do this about once every 2 months while retaining my sanity) I kept it on just long enough to hear Glenn Beck, with a straight face, say that in his opinion Obama was a Marxist. :rolleyes: \<– until I dislocate my eyeballs By your (eminently reasonable) definition, no European nation is even close to socialist, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/22 "2008-09-16T17:57:19Z")
Out of curiosity, do you get Fox News over in Qatar, and how quickly does your head explode after turning it on? 😉 Re: your AFAYCT - got it in one. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/23 "2008-09-16T18:13:22Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Out of curiosity, do you get Fox News over in Qatar, and how quickly does your head explode after turning it on? 😉 I haven’t bothered to look very hard (self-preservation and all), but I haven’t seen it while channel surfing. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/24 "2008-09-16T20:23:31Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > My gripe is with Americans who think that anyone who advocates income redistribution is a socialist. It’s funny you mention this, because I was going to post that how, after thinking about this topic a while, I remembered that Americans, or maybe it’s just conservative Americans, consider wealth redistribution to be linked with socialism. Although thinking about it, it might not be too far off base. I mean, consider this, under pure capitalism the money you have is the money you make yourself, whereas under communism it’s the government that provides for you using that “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” logic. So social programs could be seen as socialist because they fall somewhere inbetween. Hey, social is even in the name of social programs:D. So, using American programs, Social Security, Medicare, and other such programs could be seen as socialist. I think though that the reason people don’t like the term socialism is that it is usually used in a derogatory manner. At least here in the US. And by the way, I don’t see socialism as bad in and of itself, as long as it’s in small doses. I personally believe that if something happens to you, it’s a good thing if the government steps in until you get back on your feet, if at all possible. So for example, unemployment, Medicare, and Medicaid I’m perfectly fine with. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/25 "2008-09-16T21:53:32Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > So, using American programs, Social Security, Medicare, and other such programs could be seen as socialist. Sure, in the same sense that anyone who complains about cultural decline and wants greater centralization of government power is a fascist. Of course, conservatives in the US are often called fascists and liberals socialists. But it is always a misuse of the relevant terms, and is always the result of some combination of ignorance and/or hostility on the part of the accuser. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/26 "2008-09-16T22:09:41Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Sure, in the same sense that anyone who complains about cultural decline and wants greater centralization of government power is a fascist. Of course, conservatives in the US are often called fascists and liberals socialists. But it is always a misuse of the relevant terms, and is always the result of some combination of ignorance and/or hostility on the part of the accuser. What I said wasn’t a complaint or accusatory. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/27 "2008-09-16T22:19:05Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > What I said wasn’t a complaint or accusatory. I didn’t intend for my reply to sound defensive. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/28 "2008-09-16T22:19:05Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > So, using American programs, Social Security, Medicare, and other such programs could be seen as socialist. Thus, the US military is socialist. ::Waits for air strike:: ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/29 "2008-09-16T23:26:58Z")
I would say that many European countries are [Social Democracies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) or have a variation of a Social Democrat Party in the mix somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![krasna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47c2d/32.png) [@krasna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krasna)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/30 "2008-09-17T06:32:58Z")
There aren’t any socialist countries in Europe. They’re all [mixed economies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy), just like the US. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/31 "2008-09-17T07:03:40Z")
And now the US government just nationalized AIG. Socialists! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/32 "2008-09-17T07:31:31Z")
Mmm, I dunno if that’s exactly the case - an $85 billion loan repayable over two years, with warrants that _could_ be turned into common stock only if 80% of shareholders approve as collateral, doesn’t sound like “We’re taking this over now” to me. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/33 "2008-09-17T08:00:37Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Mmm, I dunno if that’s exactly the case - an $85 billion loan repayable over two years, with warrants that _could_ be turned into common stock only if 80% of shareholders approve as collateral, doesn’t sound like “We’re taking this over now” to me. Who’s the new 80% shareholder as a result of the deal, though? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808/34 "2008-09-17T08:11:56Z")
Yeah, that’s _if_ the existing shareholders approve. And what happens to the warrants when the loan is paid back? (Actually I am asking, since I haven’t been able to find that out.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-european-countries-socialist/463808.md?page=1)