# Are Most Flat Earthers Trolls? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2024, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011 "2024-02-02T09:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/101 "2024-02-04T18:11:42Z")
I was thinking about this topic, and how to “prove” that the Earth is spherical, and the conclusion I came to is: it’s very hard to demonstrate this, because most experiments require the observer to be in two, widely-separated locations. Since that is the case, any simple proof (like calling someone in Australia) is easily refuted by saying that the party to whom you are speaking is “in on it.” The proof I particularly like is asking how an Equatorial mount works on a flat earth, but once again, it requires traveling long distances to show the effect. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/102 "2024-02-04T18:40:44Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > it’s very hard to demonstrate this, because most experiments require the observer to be in two, widely-separated locations Eratosthenes got a pretty good estimate from observations. About 1000 KM apart roughly, I think, from maps. But there is little point in trying to demonstrate this to a flat-earther (or other cultist), since they have a watertight belief system. Anyone who disagrees with them is either deluded or a member of the conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/103 "2024-02-04T19:21:21Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I was thinking about this topic, and how to “prove” that the Earth is spherical, and the conclusion I came to is: it’s very hard to demonstrate this Some years ago, I was faced with coming up for a topic for my daughter’s school science project. (Or course we all know that those are all done by the parents, if at all)… right …😉 And I was wondering if there were any ways, without a fairly well-equipped laboratory, to demonstrate a lot of fundemental results that are completely accepted by contemporary science? Things like charge on the electron, size of an atom, speed of light… even atomic theory. I couldn’t come up with anything that could be proved by ‘Kitchen Chemistry’ experiments. Science as we know it has been built on a lot of cumulative research… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/104 "2024-02-04T19:31:17Z")
It’s relatively easy to observe that the earth’s surface is _curved_ by projecting a level beam of light at a fixed height above a datum (water level in a large lake on a calm day) Observe the projected beam from the other side of the lake and measure the height above the water level and you find that you have to go higher up to intercept it, because the earth’s surface has curved away over the distance. Eliminate doubts about the water itself not being level by performing the same experiment in both directions simultaneously. But proving the surface is curved isn’t the same as proving the earth is a globe, unless you do the experiment over and over across a large number of places ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/105 "2024-02-04T19:37:02Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > projecting a level beam of light at a fixed height above a datum But putting on the loonie hat: who ever said that light travels in a straight line? Why, even Einstein said it can curve! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/106 "2024-02-04T19:42:03Z")
Good point. Really, the answer is for the flat earthers to prove it’s flat. (Interestingly a few of them have tried this and got results that prove it’s round. A smaller few abandoned flat earthism as a result) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/107 "2024-02-04T21:26:33Z")
I’d say that the best argument is that around 500 years ago people decided to accept a spherical earth when they wanted to cross an ocean because they knew that if they assumed a flat earth they would die. Die. They would never reach their destination and never return home. That’s incentive. The fear of literal death kept the spherical earth and the equations of spherical geometry omnipresent in every culture and every endeavor since. Why? Because not doing so would lead to death. Ships would sink. Planes would crash. Bridges would collapse. Flat earthism is all fun and games until someone tries to put it into practice. Then it’s a death sentence. Fortunately for them, nobody ever tries to put it into practice. Including them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/108 "2024-02-04T21:32:26Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > But putting on the loonie hat: who ever said that light travels in a straight line? > Why, even Einstein said it can curve! No problem there. Flat Earthers don’t believe in gravity. They say it is all density, so light curving due to gravity is right out. > [@teelabrown](#): > > Here’s a good tongue-in-cheek argument to make to the flat earthers. > > Of course the Earth can’t be flat. If it was, cats would have knocked everything off the edge of it by now! This shows up at least once in each comment section of debunking videos. I like “nothing to sphere but sphere itself.” > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > You cannot be moderately intelligent and curious and not get that: You’re assuming moderate intelligence, a fact not in evidence. Some pilot once jokingly responded to a flerfer asking about navigation that of course the earth is flat, and we’ve never heard the end of it. > [@sciurophobic](#): > > When do flat-earthers believe the “round earth” hoax began? I’ve seen some claim that globes only showed up in classrooms in the '50s, thanks to NASA. No response when I note that I went to elementary school in the '50s, and there were plenty of globes. BTW, the flat earth map is based on the UN symbol, a map with the North Pole at the center. They used this projection to keep any member country from being at the center. My father used to be in charge of the UN flags in front of the Secretariat building around 1950. And the southern hemisphere is terribly distorted in the map, of course. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/109 "2024-02-04T21:40:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, the flat earth map is based on the UN symbol I most often see [Gleason’s _New Standard Map of the World_](https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/15234639) from 1892. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/110 "2024-02-04T22:07:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve seen some claim that globes only showed up in classrooms in the '50s, thanks to NASA. No response when I note that I went to elementary school in the '50s, and there were plenty of globes. The first globe of the earth was made in 1492, the Behaim globe. > **[Erdapfel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdapfel)** > > The Erdapfel (German for 'earth apple'; .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[ˈeːɐ̯tˌʔapfl̩\] ⓘ) is a terrestrial globe produced by Martin Behaim from 1490 to 1492. The Erdapfel is the oldest surviving terrestrial globe. It is constructed of a laminated linen ball in two halves, reinforced with wood and overlaid with a map pai... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/111 "2024-02-04T22:16:40Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > The first globe of the earth was made in 1492, the Behaim globe. I have wondered how Christopher Columbus thought he could sail from Spain to India going west if they knew the size of the earth? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/112 "2024-02-04T22:20:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I have wondered how Christopher Columbus thought he could sail from Spain to India going west if they knew the size of the earth? He simply relied on false data and thought earth was much smaller than it is, against better knowledge of the time (and much former times, Eratosthenes again). ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/113 "2024-02-04T22:29:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I have wondered how Christopher Columbus thought he could sail from Spain to India going west if they knew the size of the earth? Bad information. > Columbus mistakenly assumed that the mile referred to in the Arabic estimate of 56⅔ miles for the size of a degree matched the [Italian mile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile#Italian) of about 1,480 meters, when it was [about 30% longer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_mile). His estimate for the size of the degree and for the circumference of the Earth was therefore about 25% too small.[[20]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth#cite_note-FOOTNOTENunnEdwards1924%5Bhttpsarchiveorgstreamgeographicalconc00nunnpagen14mode1up_1%E2%80%932%5D,_%5Bhttpsarchiveorgstreamgeographicalconc00nunnpagen30mode1up_17%E2%80%9318%5D-20) The combined effect of these mistakes was that Columbus estimated the distance to Japan to be only about 5,000 km (or only to the eastern edge of the [Caribbean](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean)) while the true figure is about 20,000 km. > … > The ships barely reached the eastern Caribbean islands. Already the crews were mutinous, not because of some fear of “sailing off the edge”, but because they were running out of food and water with no chance of any new supplies within sailing distance. They were on the edge of starvation.[[21]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMorison1942209,_211-21) What saved Columbus was the unknown existence of the Americas precisely at the point he thought he would reach Japan. His ability to resupply with food and water from the Caribbean islands allowed him to return safely to Europe. Otherwise his crews would have died, and the ships foundered. [Cite.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth#Irving's_biography_of_Columbus) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/114 "2024-02-04T22:30:44Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > He simply relied on false data and thought earth was much smaller than it is, against better knowledge of the time (and much former times, Eratosthenes again). It’s easy to talk yourself into something that has a major benefit to you. Reaching the Indies without having to go around Africa would have paid off well. BTW Gould had a column about flat earth belief in the time of Columbus. A couple of monks published something about the world being flat, but no one paid attention to them. > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > The first globe of the earth was made in 1492, the Behaim globe. It struck me that Dante has the world being a globe, with the Mountain of Purgatory on the opposite side of the Earth as Jerusalem. But I guess he got funded by NASA. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/115 "2024-02-05T02:10:11Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s relatively easy to observe that the earth’s surface is _curved_ by projecting a level beam of light at a fixed height above a datum (water level in a large lake on a calm day) > Observe the projected beam from the other side of the lake and measure the height above the water level and you find that you have to go higher up to intercept it, because the earth’s surface has curved away over the distance. I think this experiment is going to turn out a bit wrong, because there’s a density gradient in the air making its index of refraction vary with height, which will bend the beam. It’ll bend downward, not upward, so this effect can’t make a flat earth look round. But the numbers won’t work quite right. Not sure if this is a big enough effect to notice. There’s a similar effect with sound which is pretty significant. That’s a problem with many of these proposals. They’re often more complicated or involve more unanticipated effects than would be convenient for a simple proof. I think if you make many trips with a marvelous spacecraft that can do things like hold positions at various altitudes (one mile, ten miles, a hundred miles, a thousand miles), with your FE riding along watching and measuring things and getting to specify what to try next, that would be quite convincing. And there’s no reason in principle this couldn’t be done, it would just require a much more marvelous spacecraft than we’ve seen yet. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/116 "2024-02-05T03:42:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > nobody ever tries to put it into practice. Including them. Not so. And this idea and link were posted previously. Post 6-7. > **[The life of rocket builder ‘Mad Mike’ Hughes](https://whyy.org/segments/the-life-and-death-of-daredevil-mad-mike-hughes/)** > > The daredevil known as “Mad Mike” Hughes died in a rocket crash in 2020. He was an amateur rocket builder obsessed with getting to the edge of the Earth to prove it is flat. Is he an inspiration or a cautionary tale? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/117 "2024-02-05T08:25:36Z")
He truly is the flattest earther ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/118 "2024-02-05T08:34:36Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I think if you make many trips with a marvelous spacecraft that can do things like hold positions at various altitudes (one mile, ten miles, a hundred miles, a thousand miles), with your FE riding along watching and measuring things and getting to specify what to try next, that would be quite convincing. And there’s no reason in principle this couldn’t be done, it would just require a much more marvelous spacecraft than we’ve seen yet. Maybe, but there’s a chance the flat earther on board would just say that it only _looks_ round, due to refraction through the windows of the spaceship, or whatever other straw they could clutch at. Also if I had a spaceship, I’m not very sure I’d fly off into space with a flerf on board. Might be a bit too unpredictable to meet my safety protocols ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/119 "2024-02-05T09:08:51Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Maybe, but there’s a chance the flat earther on board would just say that it only _looks_ round, due to refraction through the windows of the spaceship, or whatever other straw they could clutch at. Yup, _Curved windows/lenses/eyes make curved images!_, _It’s a projection!_, _The windows are actually monitors!_, _You’re using MK Ultra mind control!_ and the classic _It’s Sea Gee Eye!_ Sadly, no claims in the wild that I’ve heard that it’s all AI . . . yet. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011/120 "2024-02-05T09:27:57Z")
You guys are still thinking too logically for a flerfer. Consider that they believe flying over Antarctica is impossible, despite there being actual flights that fly over Antarctica. They explain that by the fact that the windows on airplanes are video monitors showing CGI. Same thing would apply for spaceship windows. Put them in a spacesuit and let them do a space walk and the same thing would apply to the visor on their helmet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-most-flat-earthers-trolls/997011.md?page=7)