# Are non-Christian religious symbols ever portrayed as powerful as the cross? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 13, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380 "2005-07-13T18:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/41 "2005-07-14T04:31:51Z")
Just to provide an example: [Batman/Houdini: The Devil’s Workshop](http://www.hillcity-comics.com/graphic_novels/bat/the_devils_workshop.htm) had a scene where a vampire had to be repelled using a Star of David after a crucifix didn’t work. I can’t recall if it was because the vampire were Jewish or the guy trying to repel him was. (And it’s by the loathesome Howard Chaykin, so it probably shouldn’t count.) And about how Buffy handled religious symbols: there was a scene where Willow was trying to ward off vampires from her family’s house (I believe it was against Angel) by hanging crucifixes all over the place. She was worried how her Jewish parents would react if they saw them. That implied that it wasn’t the belief of the wielder that was important, but either the belief of the vampire or the symbol itself. ---
**Author:** ![QuizCustodet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ba0ec/32.png) [@QuizCustodet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuizCustodet)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/42 "2005-07-14T08:49:45Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > If you watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which is popcorn vampire mythology at best, but still very good as far as popcorn goes) then I don’t recall if it shows any religious symbols other than crosses being used (In fact, I don’t even think they ever tried using a crucifix on a vampire) I am willing to chalk this up to the fact that the secret organization that backs Buffy’s efforts (more or less) for the early part of the show is based in England, and would presumably be of largely Anglican background. Thus, what they are experienced with is mostly crosses and holy water. I don’t think Anglicans use Crucifixes for their holy purposes (as opposed to a non-Jesus-adorned Cross), but someone feel free to correct me on this if I’m wrong. Re: Buffy. Buffy herself never really bothers with the crucifixes, largely because she can kick asses and take names with no help. The other Scoobies relatively frequently use crucifixes to repel vampires, though. See, for example, S4E1, where Oz saves Willow with one, or the evil alternate universe episode, where the alter-Scoobies use one to save Cordelia. Also note that there does appear to be both psychological and physical components to the whole deal, as the Master spends much of season one training himself to be able to ignore the crucifix itself, but still burns when in contact with it. For an amusing riff on the use of other holy symbols against vampires (and, indeed, on the vampire mythos generally) see Terry Pratchett’s _Carpe Jugulum_. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/43 "2005-07-14T13:36:25Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > (one vampire on the show carries a cross-shaped scar on his neck or chest (I can’t remember) from kissing a girl wearing a cross, though it’s never shown if this cross-shaped scar causes him to have a constant sense of dread or a burning sensation. It was early in BTVS when she was falling for Angel but hadn’t known he was a vampire. They were slow dancing & when they parted, we see her cross has scorched his chest. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/44 "2005-07-14T13:55:06Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Couple of things to point out: > > - You’re thinking Islamic, not Arabic. Arabic’s the language and the broad ethnic group, Islam’s the religion of most Arabs. But not of all Arabs, which is the crucial distinction - there are plenty of Arab Christians, for example. > - Islam doesn’t really have any of its own symbols, but is in fact fiercely iconoclastic. Thus, most symbols would be rejected as idolatry - there are no symbols hanging in a mosque the way a cross hangs in a church or menorah devices feature in a temple. > - The common exception to this is a “crescent moon” shape, for example on the flag of Turkey. This isn’t strictly a symbol of Islam (eg Muhammad wouldn’t recognize the thing), but is often used as a shorthand for Islam, more commonly by non-Muslims. It was instead the symbol of the Ottoman Empire, who may have inherited the symbol from the Byzantines. > - The “Allahu akbar” “symbol” that you mention is merely text, and not strictly a symbol, so it gets around the prohibition on idolatry. It means “God is greatest”, which is an important tenet of Islam and figures in many prayers etc. I actually knew all of this, but had forgotten. I grew up amongst an entirely Muslim community and for a long time as a child was not aware there were significant differences between Hinduism and Islam. Thank you for refreshing my memory! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/45 "2005-07-14T16:44:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I seem to recall reading of a story where a crazy homeless person was able to protect himself with a hubcap that he believed to be a magical shield. That was the comic book series _Vamps_, written (IIRC) by Elaine Lee. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/46 "2005-07-14T17:05:32Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Something else interesting on Buffy re: crosses is that what they’re made of seems to make a difference. A wooden cross can stun or repel a vampire and give him a nsaty if minor burn, but a silver cross (even if it’s smaller) has a much longer lasting affect (one vampire on the show carries a cross-shaped scar on his neck or chest (I can’t remember) from kissing a girl wearing a cross, though it’s never shown if this cross-shaped scar causes him to have a constant sense of dread or a burning sensation. So, the density, or as I shall call it, the “Holiness Per Cubic Inch” (H/in^3) of the cross seems to make a big difference on that show. Nah, I think the differences between crosses on the show can be chalked up to the costume guy rather than any intentional meaning given to the materials by the writers. At least, nothing explicit was ever mentioned in the show; nor were there any patterns to help define what you’re suggesting. (But if Mutant Enemy really did mean for us to pick up on what you’re saying, I’d love to read about it.) Furthermore, while the cross was used a lot in the show (due to the geography and culture for both the show and the audience), there were numerous other religious items used throughout which warded off both vampires and other monsters. It didn’t _have_ to be a cross, but they (and holy water) showed up the most. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/47 "2005-07-14T18:58:27Z")
Many cultures carve magic statues of “guardians” to ward off evil spirits. In some cases, the statues represent specific deities. In other cases, the statues are merely so ugly that they frighten away the evil spirits. Those dog/lion/dragon statues you see in front of Chinese palaces are one example. The gargoyles on medieval church roofs are another. I am fairly certain that I have read of similar motifs in Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Hindu architecture. Either an animalistic motif (like a sphinx or a cherub) or a hominid character (usually heavily armed and with a fearsome scowl on his face). ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/48 "2005-07-14T19:43:34Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Hmm…I wonder if one had a strong, even fanatical belief in something that _wasn’t_ holy, if a symbol of it could work against the right type of vampire. (Like if Lenin tried to use a red star against Dracula, or a follower of Mao used a “Little Red Book”) Slight threadjack: In the role-playing game TORG (which I always loved) this was almost certainly the case. Further, athiests could use their faith in the lack of a deity to adversely affect the ‘miracles’ of other faith-users. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/49 "2005-07-14T21:00:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Many cultures carve magic statues of “guardians” to ward off evil spirits. In some cases, the statues represent specific deities. In other cases, the statues are merely so ugly that they frighten away the evil spirits. > > Those dog/lion/dragon statues you see in front of Chinese palaces are one example. > > The gargoyles on medieval church roofs are another. > > I am fairly certain that I have read of similar motifs in Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Hindu architecture. Either an animalistic motif (like a sphinx or a cherub) or a hominid character (usually heavily armed and with a fearsome scowl on his face). There are, indeed, many “apotropaic” figures often held to frighten away evil influence by their ugliness. The Greeks put gorgoneia on their buildings. Hindu architecture had kirtimukka and others. I’ve argued elsewhere that this interpretation isn’t really correct. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/50 "2005-07-14T21:02:06Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > And about how Buffy handled religious symbols: there was a scene where Willow was trying to ward off vampires from her family’s house (I believe it was against Angel) by hanging crucifixes all over the place. She was worried how her Jewish parents would react if they saw them. That implied that it wasn’t the belief of the wielder that was important, but either the belief of the vampire or the symbol itself. I always assumed it was because they were using a ritual designed by a Christian scholar. They could have used a Jewish symbol instead, but then the words of the ritual would also have to be changed from Christian to Jewish. Likely they would have also had to translate from Latin to Hebrew as well. Re The X Men And Dracula I may have to reread, but I remember the star burning because Kitty did believe in Judaism. The story also had the degree to which a vampire was affected depend on the individuals faith. Kurt doesn’t just keep Dracula at bay. He blinds him, causes him incredible pain, and gets him to flee, all by picking up some twigs. Back To The OP OTTOMH, I can’t think of a blood thirsty nasty in Jewish folklore. Lilith and the Lillim get into houses at night and do nasty things, but drinking blood isn’t usually one of them. The primary defense would be a mezzuzah. A special parchment containing passages from the Torah is placed in a wooden, ceramic, or metal case and mounted on doorposts. Another variety is worn as a necklace. In some prayers, the Star of David is also called the Shield of David which certainly suggests protective properties. Red ribbons are often tied on cribs, or on infants to help ward off Lilith. A silver coin inscribed with the names of the three angels who chased her from Eden (Sanvi, Sansavi, Semangleaf) is also placed in nursery windows. The Vulcan salute is based on a gesture used by the Cohenim in benediction of the congregation. With the thumb out, the hand forms the Hebrew letter Shin. The effect of the Mogen David on vampires is addressed more fully in the miserable Greenberg The Vampire. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/51 "2005-07-14T21:12:37Z")
> [@](#): > > The gargoyles on medieval church roofs are another. In the World of Darkness game system, gargoyles are vampires. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/52 "2005-07-14T21:18:29Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > In the World of Darkness game system, gargoyles are vampires. Only a very tiny percentage of gargoyles are vampires. The Tremere designed the bloodline to take advantage of the existing statues. They reasoned an extra gargoyle on a rooftop would not be noticed. Even if it was, the skin of Gargoyles is looks, feels, and is as hard as stone. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/53 "2005-08-16T18:51:35Z")
This is Cafe Society and so I’m allowed one bump, so I’m going to use it because I have something new to add. The spiral. In many books I’ve read, the spiral is the oldest symbol of what lies beyond. It’s a sign of order from chaos, or chaos from order, depending on which way you look at it and/or which way your mind works. I knowit doesn’t have the same strength in fiction as many others, but there are many places it shows up. So, just wanted to add it in. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380/54 "2005-08-16T21:13:39Z")
Another thing: Egyptian heiroglyphs were believed to have magical powers. The act of writing down one’s intention was believed to be a magical spell to cause it to happen. “So let it be written, so let it be done,” as Yul Brenner phrased it. Of course, if your desire did not come to pass, you would simply assume that someone else had cast their own spell that interfered with yours. This belief occurred in many cultures where literacy was uncommon, and most literate people were part of the priestly classes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-christian-religious-symbols-ever-portrayed-as-powerful-as-the-cross/312380.md?page=2)