# Are non-doctoral degrees associated with prenominal titles, at least in theory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 8, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200 "2012-03-08T21:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200/82 "2012-03-14T12:52:05Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > This is in contrast to some other Commonwealth countries’ legal education, where a law degree is a true first-entry degree; and thus, a bachelor’s degree. I’ve been wondering, as the Canadian common law schools move to the JD, what the Quebec law schools will do. There, the law degree is an undergraduate degree - only needs CEGEP to get in, just like other undergrad programs (at least, that was what it was when I was there). It would be difficult to justify switching to JD for what is clearly an undergrad program, but then you have the issue that Quebec lawyers have different degrees than common law lawyers. > [@Spoons](#): > > Regardless, just as in the US, no Canadian lawyers with J.D.s would ever think of calling themselves “Doctor.” Well… I once got a c.v. from a possible witness on the other side where he was saying that his JD was a doctorate. Seemed to be skirting the line. > [@Spoons](#): > > My law school, which is now granting J.D.s, has informed me that I can trade in my Bachelor of Laws (LL.B.) for a J.D. But the LL.B. gives me more letters after my name! 😉 I got a similar letter from mine, but I’m keeping the LL.B. - partly because that’s what I earned, darnit, not some newfangled JD thing (kids these days!), but also because I’ve got an LL.B. in civil law as well: I like “N. Piper, LL.B., LL.B.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200/83 "2012-03-14T13:08:25Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > The civil law law schools in Canada, in contrast, usually offer first-entry degrees. Unless I’m mistaken their degrees are usually called LL.B.s. I have a friend who’s got a J.D., but she studied common law after her degree in civil law. I’ll have to ask her if that’s how she got this title. Oops - missed this comment when I made my earlier post - that’s my understanding - the law degree in Quebec is still an LL.B. The degree in Quebec used to be an LL.L. way back when, which is a more traditional French term, but changed to LL.B. for parity with the common law LL.B. - I think in the 60s? Quebec law schools didn’t want there to be an impression that Quebec lawyers weren’t as well-trained as common law lawyers elsewhere in Canada. Now I’m wondering if there will be a similar change, in light of the JD movement. ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_G7subs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rich\_G7subs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_G7subs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200/84 "2012-03-14T13:18:24Z")
> [@Marcus53](#): > > My experience at a US (Ivy) school was that calling yourself “doctor” if you weren’t a member of a medical profession was, as one earlier poster suggested, the height of pompous “douchebaggery.” Except for the fellow who ran the campus infirmary, even Nobel laureates just used “professor.” To do otherwise was to invite derision. > > Since college, my experience has been that when I encounter a non-medical person who calls himself (or herself) “doctor,” they tend to be people with doctorates in fields that aren’t all that academically rigorous (educational administration as opposed to physics) or from less-than-stellar institutions. Nail on the head, my friend! ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200/85 "2012-03-14T13:26:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’ve been wondering, as the Canadian common law schools move to the JD, what the Quebec law schools will do. There, the law degree is an undergraduate degree - only needs CEGEP to get in, just like other undergrad programs (at least, that was what it was when I was there). It would be difficult to justify switching to JD for what is clearly an undergrad program, but then you have the issue that Quebec lawyers have different degrees than common law lawyers. That’s probably not much of an issue. The University of Ottawa offers both common law and civil law, and formerly called its common law degree a LL.B. (I’ve checked and it’s now a JD), while it called and still calls its civil law degree a LL.L. (Licentiate of Laws). So at least in their case, they apparently consider it _desirable_ that both programs lead to different titles. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The degree in Quebec used to be an LL.L. way back when, which is a more traditional French term, but changed to LL.B. for parity with the common law LL.B. - I think in the 60s? I don’t know when it was changed, but Quebec universities usually offer baccalaureates instead of licentiates (as they do in France, where the baccalaureate is the degree at the end of high school), so LL.B. makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200/86 "2012-03-14T14:29:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’ve been wondering, as the Canadian common law schools move to the JD, what the Quebec law schools will do. There, the law degree is an undergraduate degree - only needs CEGEP to get in, just like other undergrad programs (at least, that was what it was when I was there). It would be difficult to justify switching to JD for what is clearly an undergrad program And now that I think about it, that’s not a serious issue either. Medicine is also a direct entry program in Quebec (though very hard to get into directly, so some people do one or two years in biological sciences before), and still capped by a MD. And those who practice medicine can be called “Doctor”. Of course, the MD program takes longer to complete than an usual undergraduate degree. I’ve looked at a few Quebec universities, and the general law program in civil law is direct entry and crowned with a LL.B. However, a certain number of them (Sherbrooke and Montreal at least) now offer the JD in common law as a _second_ cycle program, open to holders of a LL.B. in civil law. That’s how my friend got one (actually she tells me she’ll get it in August). So I suppose it will remain a LL.B., to distinguish it from the JD students can get _afterward_. In a different note, aren’t there countries where lawyers are called “Doctor”? As I’ve said, they’re called “Master” in French-language countries, but I seem to remember hearing about other countries (Germany maybe?) where “Doctor” is their usual title. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200/87 "2012-03-14T17:53:50Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > In a different note, aren’t there countries where lawyers are called “Doctor”? As I’ve said, they’re called “Master” in French-language countries, but I seem to remember hearing about other countries (Germany maybe?) where “Doctor” is their usual title. I’d assume that if you were among (the 10% of German) law graduates holding a _Dr.jur._ degree, you’d be called “Herr Doktor” or “Frau Doktor” in Germany. Otherwise, probably not. (disclaimer: I’m not German and don’t know the details about German law studies and degrees, but German academics are generally quite pedantic about these things) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-non-doctoral-degrees-associated-with-prenominal-titles-at-least-in-theory/615200.md?page=4)