# Are North American and South American "Indians" Genetically The Same?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 21, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129 "2008-12-21T00:49:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/1 "2008-12-21T00:49:23Z")
It seems to me, that the native people inhabiting the Amazon jungle look quite different from the Navajo people of the SW USA. Have the DNA of these peoples been compared? Are there major differences, suggesting different histories and migration dates?
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2008, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/2 "2008-12-21T01:23:57Z")
From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas)
> [@](#):
>
> Recent genetic research
>
> An article in the American Journal of Human Genetics states “Our results strongly support the hypothesis that haplogroup X, together with the other four main mtDNA haplogroups, was part of the gene pool of a single Native American founding population; therefore they do not support models that propose haplogroup-independent migrations, such as the migration from Europe posed by the Solutrean hypothesis.” The National Geographic Genographic Project identified haplogroup Q-M242 as the YDNA male ancestor of the “Siberian Clan,” some of whom remained in Asia, but that today “almost all Native Americans are descendants from this man.”
The [cited paper](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JDD-4RY1NS0-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b10b16b8048e0920cce7884ceecf3bf5) also states:
> [@](#):
>
> Native American populations exhibit almost exclusively five mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups (A–D and X). Haplogroups A–D are also frequent in Asia, suggesting a northeastern Asian origin of these lineages. However, the differential pattern of distribution and frequency of haplogroup X led some to suggest that it may represent an independent migration to the Americas. Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/3 "2008-12-21T01:31:46Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> It seems to me, that the native people inhabiting the Amazon jungle look quite different from the Navajo people of the SW USA.
Not to be snarky, but why _wouldn’t_ they look different? People occupying the same continent don’t even look the same, so why would it be any different for Native Americans occupying different continents?
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/4 "2008-12-21T02:18:21Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> Not to be snarky, but why _wouldn’t_ they look different? People occupying the same continent don’t even look the same, so why would it be any different for Native Americans occupying different continents?
Actually, Native Americans, of both North and South America, do have a more recent common origin than the inhabitants of any other single continent, so a priori they actually might be expected to resemble each other more than those of other continents.
This said, the genetic work linked to suggests that differentiation between the Native American populations within the Americas started roughly 20,000 years ago, which would appear to be sufficient time for the physical differences in different parts of the continents to have developed.
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### Author:  [@laylow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laylow)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/5 "2011-04-08T04:10:08Z")
natives in the amazon have also had a lot less contact with whites than the Navajo, therefore there has been less mixing.
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### Author:  [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/6 "2011-04-08T12:59:49Z")
Indeed, Natives of the Americas descend all from a small group of perhaps 1000 individuals that arrived to the new world only 12.000 years ago.
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### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/7 "2011-04-08T15:24:57Z")
There is some speculation that the native peoples of the Americas migrated from Asia in three groups, the Na-Dene, the Eskimo-Aleut, and the Amerind:
> **[Na-Dene languages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-Den%C3%A9)**
>
> Na-Dene (/ˌnɑːdɪˈneɪ/; also Nadene, Na-Dené, Athabaskan–Eyak–Tlingit, Tlina–Dene) is a family of Native American languages that includes at least the Athabaskan languages, Eyak, and Tlingit languages. Haida was formerly included, but is now considered doubtful. By far the most widely spoken Na-Dene language today is Navajo.
> In February 2008, a proposal connecting Na-Dene (excluding Haida) to the Yeniseian languages of central Siberia into a Dené–Yeniseian family was published and well-received b...
The Amerind group is everyone else though, so it includes all the native peoples in South America and most of those in North America. The three groups would have all departed from the same region of Asia within a few thousand years, so it would have made little difference genetically. It’s more a matter of the languages.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/8 "2011-04-08T22:29:50Z")
> [@pinguin](#):
>
> Indeed, Natives of the Americas descend all from a small group of perhaps 1000 individuals that arrived to the new world only 12.000 years ago.
Certainly not true, since some Indians had reached southern South America by about [15,000 years ago.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde) Although a few advocates remain, the “Clovis first” theory of the colonization of the Americas is no longer accepted by the majority of archeologists. By some estimates, the first colonists may have entered the Americas as much as 20,000 years ago.
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### Author:  [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/9 "2011-04-09T01:41:00Z")
Certainly 20.000 years is too much to be accepted today. 15.000 years? Perhaps.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/10 "2011-04-09T03:01:35Z")
> [@pinguin](#):
>
> Certainly 20.000 years is too much to be accepted today. 15.000 years? Perhaps.
Accepted by whom? If you’re still quoting the 12,000 year figure, I don’t think you’re up on the most current literature. [This article](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6024/1599.abstract) in this week’s _Science_ magazine presents solid evidence of occupation much earlier than that.
[Cactus Hill](http://archaeology.about.com/od/cterms/g/cactushill.htm), a pre-Clovis site in Virginia, is estimated to date to 18,000-22,000 ybp (years before the present). [Meadowcroft Rock Shelter](http://www.heinzhistorycenter.org/secondary.aspx?id=86) in Pennsylvania is estimated to date to 16,000 ybp or earlier.
The 20,000 ybp figure is admittedly at the upper limit of what is currently accepted, but there is now very substantial evidence of [pre-Clovis sites in the US](http://www.allendale-expedition.net/publications/AL_ORIGN1.PDF) older than 15,000 ybp, which implies entry into the Americas some time earlier than that.
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### Author:  [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/11 "2011-04-09T03:05:05Z")
Skeptic? Certainly I am. There are too many lunatics in Americas prehistory to believe everything it is published.
As far as I know, Monteverde is the earliest site, and it is only 12.000 years old. And I check that figure a few years ago.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/12 "2011-04-09T03:14:28Z")
> [@pinguin](#):
>
> Skeptic? Certainly I am. There are too many lunatics in Americas prehistory to believe everything it is published.
Informed skepticism is fine; but your “skepticism” seems more to be due to the fact that you’re not familiar with the current literature, rather than rejecting it. That’s not actual skepticism.
> [@](#):
>
> As far as I know, Monteverde is the earliest site, and it is only 12.000 years old. And I check that figure a few years ago.
Your figure was wrong even “a few years ago.” The generally accepted date for [Monte Verde](http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/1873/) in Chile (which I linked a few posts above) is 14,800 ybp in calibrated carbon years. (Note that uncalibrated carbon year figures may differ.)
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### Author:  [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/13 "2011-04-09T04:35:02Z")
OK. Then it is 15.000 years ago. We aren’t going to fight for 3.000 years, are we?
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/14 "2011-04-09T04:38:58Z")
> [@pinguin](#):
>
> OK. Then it is 15.000 years ago. We aren’t going to fight for 3.000 years, are we?
_More than_ 15,000 years ago (for the first colonization).😉
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### Author:  [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/15 "2011-04-10T06:52:38Z")
So, how closely related are “Indians” to people from East Asia? A Peruvian friend of mine has told me that she was often mistaken for a Chinese when she studied in Shanghai.
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### Author:  [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/16 "2011-04-10T12:30:38Z")
Amerindians are closer to East Asians and Siberians than to any other human group. And many look like each other. In fact, Asians have played Amerindians in movies and TV several times, and are more believable than Italian actors playing Indian.
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### Author:  [@anewbeginning88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anewbeginning88)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/17 "2013-02-14T03:55:02Z")
> **[Footprints rewrite history of first Americans](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7627-footprints-rewrite-history-of-first-americans/)**
>
> Fossilised human footprints found in Mexico are dated as 40,000 years old – 30,000 years before people were thought to have arrived
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/18 "2013-02-14T05:09:09Z")
> [@anewbeginning88](#):
>
> [http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7627-footprints-rewrite-history-of-first-americans.html](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7627-footprints-rewrite-history-of-first-americans.html)
And discounted by research five years later.
> **[Prehistoric 'footprints' falsified by science - USATODAY.com](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2010-05-16-footprints_N.htm)**
>
> In the current Journal of Human Evolution, a study tells the story of how prehistoric footprints didn't make tracks in human prehistory and how science checks out extraordinary claims.
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/19 "2013-02-14T16:46:07Z")
Yes, DNA from several American Indian groups has been compared, with Y chromosone (male ancestry) and Mitochondrial (female ancestry) DNA haplogroup divisions (a haplogroup is a collection of alternate forms of the same gene) featured prominently in the literature.
This link provides a graphic sampling of international Y-DNA and Mt-DNA haplogroups, with one color-coded pie chart for the Y-haplogroups, and one for the Mt haplogroups:
[World Haplogroups Maps](http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf)
The Wiki article has more graphics and information:
[Genetic history of indigenous peoples of the Americas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas)
Briefly it appears that:
(1) All or almost all Native Americans are descended from three males indentified by Y- haplogroups C, Q, and R1M1. All three also occur in Eurasia.
(2) All or almost all Native Americans are descended from five females indentified by mt- haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X. Native American mtDNA belongs to subgroups not found in Eurasia.
Details of timing and even continental origin of migration to the Americas remains obscure. For example, Y-haplogroups Q and C occur in northeast Asia and are thought to have originated there, Q being the first. However, Y-haplogoup R1M1 is rare in northeast east Asia, and is thought by some investigators to be Western European in origin.
Since comparative DNA study is a relatively new field much more information should come to light as investigation continues.
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### Author:  [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-north-american-and-south-american-indians-genetically-the-same/478129/20 "2013-02-14T16:47:18Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#):
>
> There is some speculation that the native peoples of the Americas migrated from Asia in three groups, the Na-Dene, the Eskimo-Aleut, and the Amerind:
>
> [Na-Dene languages - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-Den%C3%A9)
>
> The Amerind group is everyone else though, so it includes all the native peoples in South America and most of those in North America. The three groups would have all departed from the same region of Asia within a few thousand years, so it would have made little difference genetically. It’s more a matter of the languages.
Depends on what you are willing to call a “few” thousand years. The main Amerind group was in the New World prior to 15 thousand years ago. The Na-Dene were on Beringia until it flooded, approx. 8 thousand years ago; the Inuit crossed over somewhat later. Na-Dene still has linguistic relatives on the other side, the small Yeniseian group of which Ket is the last language that still has any speakers. Inuits of the Yupik group still straddle the Bering straits.
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