# Are Off-Shore Windmills An Economic Disaster? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168 "2010-05-12T14:28:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/1 "2010-05-12T14:28:51Z")
Taken from the USDOE: Federal subsidies and support for wind power in 2007 was $23.37 per megawatthour produced. The average subsidies and support for all electricity in the US that year was $1.65 per megawatthour produced. These figures don’t include associated transmission and distribution costs. Projected U.S. Levelized Costs (expressed as 2008$ per megawatthour for Plants Entering Service in 2016), listed in order of most-expensive to least-expensive by type of plant. Solar PV $396.1 Wind (offshore) $191.1 Wind $149.3 Advanced Coal w/ CCS $129.3 Hydro $119.9 Advanced Nuclear $119.0 Natural Gas-fired (Advanced Combined Cycle w/ CCS) $113.3 Biomass $111.0 Natural Gas-fired (Conventional Combined Cycle) $83.1 Natural Gas-fired (Advanced Combined Cycle) $79.3 Sources: US Department of Energy, Energy Information Administration Now, Massachusetts is debating spending \>$2 billion on a massive windmill complex in Nantucket Sound (off Cape Cod). It looks (to me) like a bad investment…especially compared with a modern coal-fired plant (or even nuclear). What is the situation in Europe-have these thnings paid off, or are they dependent upon big subsidies (to make them viable)? I have heard (no cite), that Italy has had several scandals relating to the government subsidy of windfarms-the local Mafia makes money off the site and construction, then the ratepayers are stuck with massively overcharged electric rates. What’s the Straight Dope on this? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/2 "2010-05-12T15:01:50Z")
Economic disaster? No. More expensive than some other types of energy sources? Yes. Although you may also argue that the price of energy through coal doesn’t include the hidden cost of ecological damage: co2 & direct pollutants as well as mining, transport etc. Also I should imagine that the windmills would help the USA develop the technology and knowledge to become internationally competitive on the windmill market. Incidentally: > [@](#): > > Long term, Vestas is betting on significant growth in wind energy in the United States. The company has one turbine manufacturing plant in Colorado and plans to build three more, plus a service and maintenance center. Vestas said Wednesday it would hire 3,400 workers this year; 2,000 of those will be in Colorado as it ramps production [Vestas Wind CEO Upbeat On Future](http://blogs.forbes.com/velocity/2010/04/28/vestas-wind-ceo-upbeat-on-future/) And you have to ask yourself if it is not an extra bonus that you may less your dependence on foreign nations for your energy needs with regard to coal/gas/nuclear fuel, if those are not present in sufficient quantities in the USA. Oil from Saudi Arabia doesn’t seem to have done anyone any favours. - Italian mob problems are hardly related to windmills. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/3 "2010-05-12T15:20:46Z")
Even if one believed that subsidies for wind energy were a total waste of energy, they’d be pretty small relative to some of the government’s other wastes of energy. I, personally, think that they’re not a waste of energy, but rather a good long-term investment. They don’t contribute to global warming, they don’t spill into the Gulf of Mexico, they don’t explode and kill dozens of miners, they aren’t dependent on coal prices that will rise as the most accessible coal deposits run out, and they are good for relations with a public and an international community that cares deeply about the environment. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/4 "2010-05-12T15:24:36Z")
But what about the seagulls!!! No, seriously, I think this is a good R&D type of investment. ROI make take a bit of time, but it is about as ‘green’ as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/5 "2010-05-12T15:26:50Z")
Subsidies for windmill R+D (which is all they are at this point - nowhere near economically viable) are fine, as long as windmills are allowed to fail if it turns out they can’t cut it. Subsidies without end, based off wishful thinking and warm’n’fuzzy pictures, _would_ make it a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/6 "2010-05-12T16:22:56Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Subsidies for windmill R+D (which is all they are at this point - nowhere near economically viable) are fine, as long as windmills are allowed to fail if it turns out they can’t cut it. Subsidies without end, based off wishful thinking and warm’n’fuzzy pictures, _would_ make it a disaster. Yes. And let’s apply the same logic to agribusiness. Corn, soy . . . if they can’t cut it, then they should be allowed to fail. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/7 "2010-05-12T16:40:27Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Although you may also argue that the price of energy through coal doesn’t include the hidden cost of ecological damage: co2 & direct pollutants as well as mining, transport etc. . The Coal quote in the OP appears to be factoring in the cost of sequestering the CO2 hence the CCS (carbon capture and sequestration). > [@Rune](#): > > And you have to ask yourself if it is not an extra bonus that you may less your dependence on foreign nations for your energy needs with regard to coal/gas/nuclear fuel, if those are not present in sufficient quantities in the USA. Oil from Saudi Arabia doesn’t seem to have done anyone any favours. Coal and gas are definitely in sufficient quantities in the United States. Nuclear is obviously just a matter of reducing the existing roadblocks. Reducing the foreign oil is a totally separate issue. Basically, that takes either increasing fuel efficiency or switching cars over to electric or CNG. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/8 "2010-05-12T17:43:58Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Economic disaster? No. More expensive than some other types of energy sources? Yes. Although you may also argue that the price of energy through coal doesn’t include the hidden cost of ecological damage: co2 & direct pollutants as well as mining, transport etc. Also I should imagine that the windmills would help the USA develop the technology and knowledge to become internationally competitive on the windmill market. Incidentally: > > [Vestas Wind CEO Upbeat On Future](http://blogs.forbes.com/velocity/2010/04/28/vestas-wind-ceo-upbeat-on-future/) > > And you have to ask yourself if it is not an extra bonus that you may less your dependence on foreign nations for your energy needs with regard to coal/gas/nuclear fuel, if those are not present in sufficient quantities in the USA. Oil from Saudi Arabia doesn’t seem to have done anyone any favours. > > - Italian mob problems are hardly related to windmills. We’re not dependent on foreign interests for electrical energy. We have enough coal for the foreseeable future. On top of that, we can mine the burnt coal for co2 and use it to grow algae which would make us energy independent of foreign oil used for transportation. As far as the 5,000 jobs are concerned, they could just as easily be added by coal or nuclear related jobs at much greater efficiency which greatly increases the ability of other businesses to produce. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/9 "2010-05-12T18:39:22Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] I should imagine that the windmills would help the USA develop the technology and knowledge to become internationally competitive on the windmill market. [/QUOTE] Could be wrong here, but I THINK the US is actually the largest producer of wind power on the planet. Regardless, it’s not like the US is behind the curve or that we have to break into the windmill market to become international competitive. I don’t know where the impression comes from the that US doesn’t have wind turbines already in large deployments across the country, but, well, we do. Thousands of the things. As to the OP, I’d say, no…it’s not an economic disaster. Wind power is always going to be a niche oriented technology. It’s never going to be a serious replacement technology for coal or even nuclear. It just won’t scale up to those levels. However, the fact that it requires subsidies doesn’t necessarily mean that much, since it’s a fairly new technology. If it still takes large subsidies to continue 20 years from now, then it still won’t be a disaster, but it will probably be apparent by then that it’s not economically feasible except in very niche oriented areas. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/10 "2010-05-12T18:57:47Z")
I have been to Denmark, and seent he windmills in the Baltic Sea (I took the ferry from Puttgarten). Anyway: -how much is electricity in Denmark? -how much does wind power supply? -what is the life span of an offshore windmill? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/11 "2010-05-12T19:09:15Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I have been to Denmark, and seent he windmills in the Baltic Sea (I took the ferry from Puttgarten). > Anyway: > -how much is electricity in Denmark? > -how much does wind power supply? > -what is the life span of an offshore windmill? > **[Wind power in Denmark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark)** > > Denmark was a pioneer in developing commercial wind power during the 1970s, and today a substantial share of the wind turbines around the world are produced by Danish manufacturers such as Vestas—the world's largest wind-turbine manufacturer—along with many component suppliers. Furthermore, Denmark has—as of 2022—the world's 2nd highest amount of wind power generation capacity installed per capita, behind only neighboring Sweden. > In 2024, wind power made up 59.3% of total electricity generat... ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/12 "2010-05-13T08:48:51Z")
Large wind turbines require a fair amount of maintenance so putting them in water [adds more to the cost](http://www.offshorewindenergy.org/ca-owee/indexpages/Offshore_technology.php?file=offtech_p6.php). ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/13 "2010-05-13T09:39:11Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > The Coal quote in the OP appears to be factoring in the cost of sequestering the CO2 hence the CCS (carbon capture and sequestration). It was my impression that effective carbon capture and sequestration technologies for coal plants were still very much a thing of the future and in addition very expensive with regard to the extra coal that needs to be burned to generate the same amount of energy. And then you have the problem of where you want to store the end-product and it still doesn’t address the problems to do with mining and transportation. > [@LonghornDave](#): > > Coal and gas are definitely in sufficient quantities in the United States. Nuclear is obviously just a matter of reducing the existing roadblocks. Reducing the foreign oil is a totally separate issue. Basically, that takes either increasing fuel efficiency or switching cars over to electric or CNG. Foreign coal and especially gas dependencies are definitively a concern for Western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![udlander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/43a26b/32.png) [@udlander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/udlander)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/14 "2010-05-13T10:55:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I have been to Denmark, and seent he windmills in the Baltic Sea (I took the ferry from Puttgarten). > Anyway: > -how much is electricity in Denmark? > -how much does wind power supply? > -what is the life span of an offshore windmill? I am not Rune, but I can help answer the first part of your question… From my latest quarterly bill (6 person household) 1533 kWh cost 561,61 Kr plus 30kr contract fee, plus moms (value added tax) at 25% gives 739,51kr for the electricity we used. But - the total bill was 3067,59 kr (due to charges for: transport of electricity (443,32), public duties (?) (156,34), network contract (161,99), electricity surcharge/tax (940,83), distribution surcharge/tax (61,33), tax to encourage using less electricity (!) (98,65) and then moms again (!) giving 2328,08 in extra charges). My conclusion, the electricity is not very expensive, but using it is. For comparison purposes, 100 Danish Kr is approximately 17 USD. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/15 "2010-05-13T13:41:05Z")
> [@udlander](#): > > I am not Rune, but I can help answer the first part of your question… > From my latest quarterly bill (6 person household) > 1533 kWh cost 561,61 Kr > plus 30kr contract fee, plus moms (value added tax) at 25% gives 739,51kr for the electricity we used. > But - the total bill was 3067,59 kr (due to charges for: transport of electricity (443,32), public duties (?) (156,34), network contract (161,99), electricity surcharge/tax (940,83), distribution surcharge/tax (61,33), tax to encourage using less electricity (!) (98,65) and then moms again (!) giving 2328,08 in extra charges). > My conclusion, the electricity is not very expensive, but using it is. > > For comparison purposes, 100 Danish Kr is approximately 17 USD. If I may ask, what’s the size of your house? That’s a bill for three full months, right? Approx. US$521. For comparison, we use a gas-fired plant here (IIRC), I have a 2200 sq ft house with four people (two adults, two toddlers) and I paid US$774 last quarter. ---
**Author:** ![udlander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/43a26b/32.png) [@udlander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/udlander)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/16 "2010-05-13T14:24:52Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > If I may ask, what’s the size of your house? That’s a bill for three full months, right? Approx. US$521. > > For comparison, we use a gas-fired plant here (IIRC), I have a 2200 sq ft house with four people (two adults, two toddlers) and I paid US$774 last quarter. It is a terraced house (rækkehus) of about 170 sq m. But I suppose the real question is how many kWh did you get for your $774? I have no idea exactly what the contribution of wind power was to my bill, it is not itemised by source. However, from the DONG\* website: 83 percent of DONG Energy’s power production in 2009 was thermal power plants of which the majority are fossil fuelled. The remainder came from hydro power and on- and offshore wind in: ``` * Denmark * Sweden * Great Britain * France * Poland * Norway ``` \*DONG=dansk olie og naturgas/danish oil and natural gas (but remains mildly amusing to me) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/17 "2010-05-13T15:58:24Z")
> [@udlander](#): > > It is a terraced house (rækkehus) of about 170 sq m. But I suppose the real question is how many kWh did you get for your $774? Yeah, I didn’t see that you had listed the kWh’s in your post. Here’s the breakdown: **udlander** 1533 kWh, US$521, $0.339/kWh **Zakalwe** 5648 kWh, US$774, $0.137/kWh For those that are curious, I used 2.56kWh per sq ft over the quarter, udlander used .0838 kWh per sq ft over the same period. Man, I suck. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/18 "2010-05-13T16:05:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As to the OP, I’d say, no…it’s not an economic disaster. Wind power is always going to be a niche oriented technology. It’s never going to be a serious replacement technology for coal or even nuclear. It just won’t scale up to those levels. > -XT I’ve heard that wind can be used for up to 30% of our electricity generation if we have a national grid. Even at half that, it’s significant but no where near suffcient. I’d like to see more emphasis on nuclear and research on whether there really could be a clean coal solution. I’m sure that would need subsidies at first as well. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/19 "2010-05-13T16:09:55Z")
> [@](#): > > DONG=dansk olie og naturgas/danish oil and natural gas (but remains mildly amusing to me) It should have a mascot with a luminous nose > **[Edward Lear, The Dong with a Luminous Nose](https://www.nonsenselit.org/Lear/ll/dln.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168/20 "2010-05-13T20:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve heard that wind can be used for up to 30% of our electricity generation if we have a national grid. Even at half that, it’s significant but no where near suffcient. I’ve long said that it’s a mistake to look for one big solution to many problems, but that instead sometimes the solution is a set of a whole bunch of small solutions. Obviously 30% isn’t a complete solution, but if you put it together with a few other ideas, it might be. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-off-shore-windmills-an-economic-disaster/539168.md?page=2)