# Are old, unused trademarks up for grabs?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 29, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683 "2019-05-29T00:21:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/1 "2019-05-29T00:21:25Z")
For some reason, the old regional chain of Grandpa Pigeon’s discount stores popped into my mind today. I think they’ve all been closed for 25 years, and Wikipedia says the business is defunct.
I’m sure someone bought the trademark when the business was sold, but nobody is currently using it, and don’t trademarks have to be actively used to maintain their protection?
So can I legally open a Grandpa’s store of my own? Could I start a new Packard or Delorean car company? Are old defunct trademarks up for grabs?
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### Author:  [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/2 "2019-05-29T00:49:27Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> For some reason, the old regional chain of Grandpa Pigeon’s discount stores popped into my mind today. I think they’ve all been closed for 25 years, and Wikipedia says the business is defunct.
>
> I’m sure someone bought the trademark when the business was sold, but nobody is currently using it, and don’t trademarks have to be actively used to maintain their protection?
Not exactly. A trademark that is not used for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years) can be cancelled by filing a non-use cancellation against it. Until that is done the trademark is usually still valid.
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> So can I legally open a Grandpa’s store of my own? Could I start a new Packard or Delorean car company? Are old defunct trademarks up for grabs?
I think you can start up a new Grandpa’s store if all their IP is no longer valid. You might want to make it very clear that you are a new company and have no connection to the old one, to avoid claims of fraud.
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/3 "2019-05-29T02:37:11Z")
NPR had a [story](https://www.npr.org/2015/09/23/442761531/one-mans-mission-to-bring-back-hydrox-cookies) about how someone brought back the Hydrox cookie. He had to prove in court that Kellogg (who bought out the company who originally made Hydrox) was no longer using it and had no intention of bringing it back.
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### Author:  [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/4 "2019-05-29T20:42:28Z")
Keep in mind, registered trademarks (the little R in a circle) are more strongly protected than normal trademarks (just a little TM).
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### Author:  [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/5 "2019-05-30T00:46:28Z")
IANAL, but I slept with an IP attorney for many years. My understanding is that failing to enforce or even use your trademark for a number of years constitutes _abandonment_. After that, someone else could try to use it. You can fight them, and try to show that you have not abandoned it, but you might not win, especially if you truly have abandoned it.
> **[What is trademark abandonment? - Patent Trademark Blog | IP Q&A](https://www.patenttrademarkblog.com/what-is-trademark-abandonment/)**
>
> What is trademark abandonment? Can a cancellation based on abandonment be filed against a trademark registration over 5 years?
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### Author:  [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/6 "2019-05-30T15:25:10Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#):
>
> IANAL, but I slept with an IP attorney for many years.
You had some interesting pillow talk.
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### Author:  [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/7 "2019-05-30T15:27:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> Could I start a new Packard or **Delorean car company**?
Someone beat you to it: [A New DeLorean Is Coming Soon, And It'll Have Triple the Horsepower of the Original - Maxim](https://www.maxim.com/rides/brand-new-delorean-coming-soon-2018-1)
> **[Inside the Car Company That's Resurrecting the DeLorean](https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a25938392/inside-delorean-motor-company/)**
>
> DMC’s headquarters doubles as a restoration garage and storage for thousands of original three-decade-old DeLorean parts. Soon, it will become an assembly hall for the revamped DeLorean.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/8 "2019-05-30T17:03:36Z")
Sometimes companies will keep old trademarks in use in a very minor manner–so they can’t be reclaimed by other companies.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/9 "2019-05-30T18:16:36Z")
Generally speaking, a trademark is valid so long as it’s being used. Trademarks are routinely abandoned, and, yes, they are essentially up for grabs.
> [@Isamu](#):
>
> Not exactly. A trademark that is not used for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years) can be cancelled by filing a non-use cancellation against it. Until that is done the trademark is usually still valid.
You’re confusing a _trademark_ with a _trademark registration_. Trademark rights, under U.S. law anyway, are based upon _use in commerce_, not upon registration. A registration can be proof of trademark rights, but it is not the source of those rights.
A trademark can be abandoned while a registration is still valid. The registration might give the original trademark holder the benefit of certain presumptions, but ultimately if the facts on the ground are that the original trademark holder has ceased use in commerce, then a registration won’t save it.
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### Author:  [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/10 "2019-05-30T18:17:47Z")
The only [Grandpa Pigeon trademark](https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=72194219&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch) I’ve found registered is a design mark that has been abandoned since the late 80s.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/11 "2019-05-30T19:49:58Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#):
>
> The only [Grandpa Pigeon trademark](https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=72194219&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch) I’ve found registered is a design mark that has been abandoned since the late 80s.
And that actually appears to be for “Grandpa Pidgeon” (note the different spelling), and was for a brand of household and automotive products, not discount stores.
Edit: upon looking up [the store on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GrandPa%27s), it looks like it was, in fact, spelled “Pidgeon,” as well. Given that the store was based in Missouri, and that trademark was held by a Missouri company (“Pidgeon Vitrified China”) which is listed in the Wikipedia entry for the discount store, it sounds like they were part of the same company, at least at one point.
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### Author:  [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/12 "2019-05-30T20:12:53Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#):
>
> And that actually appears to be for “Grandpa Pidgeon” (note the different spelling), and was for a brand of household and automotive products, not discount stores.
>
> Edit: upon looking up [the store on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GrandPa%27s), it looks like it was, in fact, spelled “Pidgeon,” as well. Given that the store was based in Missouri, and that trademark was held by a Missouri company (“Pidgeon Vitrified China”) which is listed in the Wikipedia entry for the discount store, it sounds like they were part of the same company, at least at one point.
Yeah, I saw that, too. Was tempted to research the company further, but I didn’t have the time.
My best guess, sans research, is that the character mark (“Grandpa Pidgeon”) was a regional common law trademark that died when the company reached it’s final dissolution. The design mark (the logo) was registered, and it died at the listed date.
If so, and if you carefully avoid the potential for fraud mentioned above, then yes, you ought to be able to reuse the name. Maybe even the logo, but that would be troublesome because of the fraud aspect (you’d appear to be pretending to be a continuation of the original) and because copyright is attached to the image.
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### Author:  [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-old-unused-trademarks-up-for-grabs/834683/13 "2019-05-31T02:45:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> Generally speaking, a trademark is valid so long as it’s being used. Trademarks are routinely abandoned, and, yes, they are essentially up for grabs.
>
> You’re confusing a _trademark_ with a _trademark registration_. Trademark rights, under U.S. law anyway, are based upon _use in commerce_, not upon registration. A registration can be proof of trademark rights, but it is not the source of those rights.
>
> A trademark can be abandoned while a registration is still valid. The registration might give the original trademark holder the benefit of certain presumptions, but ultimately if the facts on the ground are that the original trademark holder has ceased use in commerce, then a registration won’t save it.
No I’m not. I’m just not restricting myself to US law. The OP didn’t specify the legal domain.