# Are OPEN CARRY VS. POLICE street stops going to come to a head? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134 "2014-10-01T22:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/201 "2014-10-06T20:46:02Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > However, what is NOT uncommon is for a gun enthusiast to call anyone who doesn’t agree with them, “young” or “naive”. I’m just trying to gauge your approximate depth of life experience. A 54 year old is more likely to have a different perspective that a 16 year old, and it will be different than when he was 16. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/202 "2014-10-06T20:51:32Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Not so far as I’ve seen, but I’m open to being persuaded otherwise. But Democrat politicians are not lefty liberals. It’s a cliche stereotype that liberals are always complaining about and criticizing the police on the issues you mentioned. The only other bloc who complains as much are civil libertarians, but they don’t generally oppose open carry. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/203 "2014-10-06T22:12:32Z")
It is a right. Thus it can be executed and enjoyed. Although it is the biggest level of Attention Whore someone can ever get to, carrying a MP5 in on the back in open sight. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/204 "2014-10-07T00:07:07Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I read that you seemed awfully stunned by the fact that the police have no duty to protect you which has been somewhat common knowledge for a while now. Pst. pkbites. I don’t think that’s common knowledge. Hollywood doesn’t tell you about that and most have only tangential exposure to LE. The NRA does remind their membership of this fact pretty much all the time, but most people aren’t NRA members. You have to realize that these issues aren’t really on most people’s radar. That’s the curse of professionalism I suppose: pros assume without thinking that everyone knows at least the basics of their line of work. They don’t. Maybe it’s a variant of what the brits call wishful nonthinking. As I see it, the moral for non-professionals in a given field (eg me, JesterX) is to give the pros (eg pkbites, Bricker, Little Nemo) due respect and a fair hearing, even if you disagree with them. (A given field broadly defined.) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/205 "2014-10-07T01:37:37Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > But Democrat politicians are not lefty liberals. It’s a cliche stereotype that liberals are always complaining about and criticizing the police on the issues you mentioned. The only other bloc who complains as much are civil libertarians, but they don’t generally oppose open carry. Sorry, but that’s not going to wash. If you want to write out Hillary or the blue dogs, that’s fair, but excluding Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Dennis Kucinich, Chuck Schumer, Al Franken, etc. as “not lefty liberals” is a game of “no true Scotsman.” Sanders is a self-described socialist, FFS. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/206 "2014-10-07T17:22:54Z")
Hat tip to the Volokh blog for this excerpt from Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Div., 2014 WL 4925052 (N.D. Ohio Sept. 30, 2014): > [@](#): > > On the evening of June 16, 2010, Northrup was walking down a street in his neighborhood, with his wife, daughter, grandson, and their Yorkshire terrier, and a handgun holstered on his right hip, when Alan Rose drove by on a motorcycle. Northrup and Rose did not know each other, but Rose stopped his motorcycle and began telling Northrup that he could not walk around in public while openly carrying a handgun. Northrup and his wife told Rose that open carry of a firearm is legal in Ohio, but the conversation quickly devolved into an argument. After a few minutes, Northrup and his family continued walking while Rose called 911. A dispatcher with the Toledo, Ohio Police Division sent Officers Comes and Bright, as well as Sergeant Ray, to investigate. > . > . > . > The Fourth Amendment requires that a police officer determine probable cause exists prior to making an arrest…. The Fourth Amendment also covers a less intrusive category of searches and seizures known as a Terry stop. If an officer has a reasonable suspicion criminal activity is occurring, that officer may briefly stop an individual to make reasonable inquiries designed to confirm or dispel that suspicion. The officer also may undertake this course of inquiry if the officer has a reasonable suspicion the individual previously committed a crime. An officer’s “reasonable suspicion” must be supported by “specific and articulable facts.” > > While Northrup’s encounter with the Toledo Police originated with a 911 call, the Fourth Amendment does not require a heightened showing to justify the dispatch of officers to the scene [or to justify approaching a person in public and asking questions]. Thus, Northrup’s rights were not violated when Officer Bright exited his car and began walking toward Northrup and his family, as consensual encounters between private citizens and law enforcement do not implicate the Fourth Amendment. > . > . > . > The Defendants . . . claim “the 9-1-1 emergency call and a man carrying a pistol in the street who fit the description given to the police” provided Officer Bright with reasonable suspicion to conduct a Terry stop. > > \*\*This is plainly wrong. \*\*While Ohio law forbids individuals from carrying a concealed weapon without a license, there is no prohibition against the open carry of handguns. Northrup was acting within the bounds of Ohio law at the time a then-anonymous person called 911. > > The full communication from the dispatcher to Officer Bright was that a white male was walking his dog on Rochelle carrying a handgun out in the open. Though Rose told the dispatcher, and later Officer Comes, that he had argued with Northrup about his handgun, Officer Bright had no knowledge of this detail. When he arrived on the scene, Officer Bright located a person matching this description — Northrup — and clearly observed he had the gun holstered on his hip, and was not carrying it in his hand. > . > . > . > The Defendants also claim it was reasonable for Officer Bright to stop and disarm Northrup because he was “unfamiliar with Plaintiff and … [lacked] knowledge of what Plaintiff’s intentions [were] and whether Plaintiff was intending to engage in a crime.” The Defendants’ argument boils down to a claim that an officer’s mere hunch or speculation that an individual might have committed an undefined crime is sufficient to support an investigatory stop. This is simply and clearly incorrect. Terry, 392 U.S. at 27 (officer does not act reasonably if he relies on “his inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or ‘hunch’”)…. The Defendants claim Officer Bright could not have known whether Northrup might have been under a disability from owning a firearm, such as a previous felony conviction, a current indictment, or because he might have been under the influence of drugs or alcohol, but fail to offer a single piece of evidence or identify any case law to substantiate any of these theories > > In sum, the Defendants cannot offer any evidence to support their argument that, by the fact of the 911 call and subsequent dispatch, Officer Bright had a reasonable suspicion that Northrup had committed a crime, was committing a crime, or was about to commit a crime. (Bolded emphasis added by me). ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/207 "2014-10-07T17:57:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hat tip to the Volokh blog for this excerpt from Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Div., 2014 WL 4925052 (N.D. Ohio Sept. 30, 2014): Thanks for that. I want to add that here in Wisconsin things are even tighter for a LEO: \*State supreme court ruled in Hamden that open carry was protected by the right to bear arms clause in the state constitution. \*The Wisconsin Attorney General issued an opinion that open carry was not illegal and not an arrestable offense. \*The state disorderly conduct statute was changed to read that openly carrying a weapon is NOT disorderly conduct. \*Wisconsins concealed carry law includes a clause codifying open carry and acknowledging it’s legality. \*Wisconsin law prohibits localities from having ordinances that are more stringent than state law. \*There have been several cases where LEO’s have stopped/arrested open carriers. Every case has resulted in that agency losing a lawsuit and paying out big bucks. All of this pertains to all firearms, not just pistols. Considering this, would the likes of some on these boards still have me stop someone who is doing nothing more than walking down the sidewalk carrying a rifle? I certainly can talk to them, but if they keep walking there is nothing I can do. Ontop of Terry constraints I have the constraints of what is going on in my state. Under what justification could I detain said person? “People don’t like it, it makes them pee pee” isn’t going to fly. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/208 "2014-10-07T20:12:17Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I’m just trying to gauge your approximate depth of life experience. A 54 year old is more likely to have a different perspective that a 16 year old, and it will be different than when he was 16. 44 years ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/209 "2014-10-07T23:42:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It isn’t just other people who might have guns. […] I want to carry a gun not just against others who might assault me with a gun, but with a knife or a baseball bat. Or the bully who’s 6’6" and 275 lbs of solid muscle. Or the five guys roaming the streets looking for some fun. Sure, I never claimed that people carrying guns are the only dangerous people out there. But if carrying a gun is **one** of the things that makes other people potentially dangerous, then it would be silly for me to automatically assume that anybody I see carrying a gun must **not** be dangerous. [QUOTE=Lumpy] I would guess that like me, the majority of carry advocates believe in being “porcupines”: harmless if left alone, painful if molested. [/QUOTE] I find that guess eminently reasonable and plausible. **But even if it is true, I still have no way of knowing whether any particular random stranger carrying a gun happens to belong to that rational “porcupine” majority**. (Nor do I have any way of knowing whether such a random stranger, even one who believes in being a “porcupine”, is competent enough to avoid causing harm unintentionally.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/210 "2014-10-08T10:55:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What about the Terry case I talked about upthread? Walking down the street is legal. Looking through store windows is legal. Talking to another person is legal. > > It’s the circumstances which make them suspicious. Carrying a rifle in downtown Pittsburgh and going to Primanti Brothers is certainly, at the very least, suspicious. I fear that in our zeal to assert our second amendment rights, we start to look foolish by claiming that nobody should turn their heads for someone carrying a rifle in town. So, returning to this comment. As you can see from my post above, “suspicious,” is not enough. An inchoate, unparticularized suspicion that someone might violate some law doesn’t meet the Terry standard. The officer must be able to point to specific facts that support a particular suspicion that a specific crime is involved. Do you understand? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/211 "2014-10-08T11:04:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, returning to this comment. > > As you can see from my post above, “suspicious,” is not enough. An inchoate, unparticularized suspicion that someone might violate some law doesn’t meet the Terry standard. The officer must be able to point to specific facts that support a particular suspicion that a specific crime is involved. > > Do you understand? I think he specified Primanti’s because they serve fries/slaw right on their sammiches. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/212 "2014-10-08T11:28:55Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I think he specified Primanti’s because they serve fries/slaw right on their sammiches. Some folks just needs killin’. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/213 "2014-10-08T13:27:25Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I think he specified Primanti’s because they serve fries/slaw right on their sammiches. Well, yeah. That would be particularized, articulable suspicion of a crime against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/214 "2014-10-08T15:31:51Z")
You know who else served french fries and coleslaw right on the sandwich, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/215 "2014-10-09T06:50:59Z")
Since the subject came up earlier, I thought of this thread when coming across this story: [Man practicing open carry law robbed of gun](http://koin.com/2014/10/07/man-practicing-open-carry-law-robbed-of-gun/). > [@](#): > > A man practicing his open carry right was robbed of the gun he was openly carrying. > > William Coleman III was robbed of his Walter- brand P22 just after 2:00 a.m. October 4 in Gresham by a young man who asked him for it — and flashed his own weapon as persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/216 "2014-10-12T03:34:26Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, but that’s not going to wash. If you want to write out Hillary or the blue dogs, that’s fair, but excluding Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Dennis Kucinich, Chuck Schumer, Al Franken, etc. as “not lefty liberals” is a game of “no true Scotsman.” Sanders is a self-described socialist, FFS. I don’t know if those politicians have raised the issues you mentioned. I wouldn’t be surprised if they haven’t, given the authoritarian nature of the government in general and the Democratic party in particular. I’m more curious why you think libs don’t criticize the police on the issues you mentioned, along with many others, such as civil forfeiture, private prisons, racial/class disparities in arrests and sentencing, the entire drug war, and so on. Disdain for police and “the Man” might make a top five list of lib stereotypes. It’s a common theme of lib blogs, books, lectures, and comments sections. When you say they don’t that raises the question: who is criticizing the police, then? On this board and on the internet in general? How did libs get this reputation as police bashers, soft on crime, soft on drugs – is it propaganda from law and order conservatives? Anarcho-syndicalists pretending to be lib? I don’t think Daily Kos, Think Progress, or TYT have been infiltrated by libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/217 "2014-10-12T04:46:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since the subject came up earlier, I thought of this thread when coming across this story: [Man practicing open carry law robbed of gun](http://koin.com/2014/10/07/man-practicing-open-carry-law-robbed-of-gun/). It happens so rarely it makes the national news. When was the last time a common armed robbery made the national news? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/218 "2014-10-12T05:30:51Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Simple. Police are MARKED by uniforms. When you see one in uniform, you’re not only unafraid of their gun but you expect it. And even plain clothes officers don’t carry their guns openly. When you see an everyday NON-MARKED person openly carrying a gun, you have no idea why or for what purpose. It unnecessarily makes you apprehensive. Even if the person doesn’t start blasting away immediately, as long as they’re in your presence you’re constantly in fear that they will. the only person in my community shot and killed with an AR-15 was killed by a police officer. I’m not hugely impressed by the uniform and consider any officer with a gun drawn a serious risk to the public at large. They are trained to take down a suspect who doesn’t respond to police commands and that is not my idea of serving the community. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/219 "2014-10-12T06:58:01Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It happens so rarely it makes the national news. When was the last time a common armed robbery made the national news? Whenever it’s something that can be milked for ratings and they have nothing more titillating to put on? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134.md?page=10)