# Are OPEN CARRY VS. POLICE street stops going to come to a head? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134 "2014-10-01T22:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/21 "2014-10-02T13:00:04Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > How is one going to know someone else is carrying a concealed weapon? “No guns” means no guns, open carry or concealed. What’s the problem? I’m… not sure I understand this post at all. Wal-Mart allows guns, so yeah, what’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/22 "2014-10-02T13:24:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Depending upon who wins the case, this could be a boon for armed criminals and trolls. Is it against the law to open carry while wearing a ski mask? Freedom! In Virginia: > [@](#): > > § 18.2-422. Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions. > > It shall be unlawful for any person over 16 years of age to, with the intent to conceal his identity, wear any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon (a) the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device, or (b) the declaration of a disaster or state of emergency by the Governor in response to a public health emergency where the emergency declaration expressly waives this section, defines the mask appropriate for the emergency, and provides for the duration of the waiver. The violation of any provisions of this section is a Class 6 felony. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/23 "2014-10-02T14:31:27Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > …The whole anti-gunners’ “designed to kill” argument is so ridiculous and non-relevant, I’m sick of hearing it. Of course guns are designed to kill/damage living things. That’s usually why we have them. You want me to carry a Nerf gun? You do realize that your second sentence negates your first. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/24 "2014-10-02T14:46:15Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > He may be replaced by the dreaded Hillary, but she’s not quite as scary. ( and also not quite as black:) ). Actually, the big fear is that he’s a Democrat, not really because he’s black or ostensibly Muslim. The wing-nuts were saying the same things back when Bill Clinton was president, and with much more grounds to do so (Assault Weapons ban, waiting periods, etc…) It’s just that Obama’s the first Democratic president since then- these guys are assuming that he’s trying to pick up where Clinton left off, and have their fires fueled by more sophisticated and experienced propaganda since Clinton left office. I suspect Hillary will engender her own brand of fear, being associated with her husband like she is. Ultimately, these types tend to also be big civil liberty nuts- they’re actively trying to antagonize the anti-gun crowd (not so much the cops) and in their eyes, make a point by showing that yes, they can walk around with a rifle, and no, there’s nothing anyone can do about it, since it’s legal. I’m personally not sure what the point is- going under the radar and not resisting wouldn’t be good, but being scary and nutty just turns more people off. They’d be better off having free shooting days or something at the local range, than this clownish behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/25 "2014-10-02T16:00:22Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Astonishing! Only in America. > > There is something very wrong between the people and government when individuals feel the need to test their rights by contrTiving such confrontations with the police. Oh yes, because only when something is very wrong between the people and their government will a group of people organize peaceful protests to demonstrate against what they believe is unjust. > [@](#): > > Do people not have a sense of responsibility for the damage they can do with such weapons? People who engage in organized open carry demonstrations are generally acutely aware of their responsibility, local law, and what the limits of their actions are. It’s usually the random folks or police who are unaware of the law. > [@](#): > > Provoking these situations seems to rest very heavily on video recordings and the patience of police officers and their ability to assess the situation correctly, That seems a very rash assumption. Of course recordings are necessary. Without them, there would be no evidence of wrongdoing by police. Should a lawsuit be necessary to force compliance, the video is great evidence. > [@](#): > > Are these situations all contrived by political activists for the purposes of promoting their cause on social media? > :dubious: I wouldn’t say all of these situations are done by activists, but many are. That’s the whole point of a demonstration - to raise awareness, garner support, push the cause. > [@chappachula](#): > > This all began because some people are scared that Obama\* is going to cancel the 2nd ammendment and take away all of America’s freedoms. So, the logic says, obviously we all have to start carrying our guns openly, right now, or else we’ll lose all our rights forever and ever. This is false. The open carry movement probably gained it’s largest victory and momentum in Ohio around 2003. This was to protest the lack of concealed carry permits in that state. Open carry was legal, but concealed wasn’t. To protest this, groups organized open carry marches and events. In the desire to dissuade open carry, Ohio became a shall issue conceal carry state. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/26 "2014-10-02T17:07:29Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > The whole anti-gunners’ “designed to kill” argument is so ridiculous and non-relevant, I’m sick of hearing it. Of course guns are designed to kill/damage living things. That’s usually why we have them. You want me to carry a Nerf gun? For what it’s worth, I’m pretty strongly pro-gun and pro-responsibility. I’m also pro-considerate of others to a greater degree than I have to be because I appreciate it when others return the favor. Now, personal carry is not for me because I don’t trust myself to handle a gun properly should I be threatened by anything more dangerous than a paper target (and I assure you, I can murder a paper taget like a pro). Someone else, you maybe, if it works for you then fantastic, I see no reason to project my own doubts onto someone else. But what concerns me is the kneejerk rebuttal when someone has to field the assertion: “Guns are for killing.” That assertion is neither ridiculous nor non-relevant because it is absolutely true. And from a gun-safety standpoint I get really nervous when someone tries to treat them as anything but lethal, all the time, every time. Walking around town during peacetime at sling arms demonstrates a lack of respect for the weapon as well as for the sensibilities of others who, for whatever reason, don’t share the armed person’s generous acceptance of firearms. Equating a gun to a dog is a ridiculous strawman until dogs start killing people with the same frequency as sloppily handled weapons. Nobody is going to steal your dog and get it to maul a playground 10 minutes later, for instance, and guns don’t sneak out of the house on their own and make holes in people while you’re not looking. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/27 "2014-10-02T17:47:00Z")
I’m ambivalent about this situation. I support gun rights and I think situations where people seem to just feel that being in the presence of a gun puts them in danger, like the person upthread who said he would leave a restaurant without paying if someone walked in with a gun, but at the same time, recognizing that this is how people react to it, I think creating a situation that creates a potentially tense situation between armed individuals or reinforces the irrational fear that people have of guns just makes the situation worse, not better. That is, it’s one thing to walk around with a self-defense weapon on one’s hip, casually going about one’s day. A poster mentioned upthread he may stop to get gas or whatever while wearing one. OTOH, while still perfectly legal, a couple guys walking down the street with rifles strapped to their back with the express purpose of being seen doing so is something else. In the former, it demonstrates that he does so and is a just like everyone else, I don’t think many people would feel a whole lot of fear of someone with a revolver on his hip pumping gas. Frankly, I don’t blame anyone who is afraid of people marching down the street in the latter case; it’s just not normal behavior. Or to put it analogously, I also support gay rights. I think if a gay couple is walking down the street doing the same sort of casual affection toward eachother that most couples do (holding hands, small kisses, hugs, etc), that helps to reinforce that, in fact, they’re normal people too. But if two activists decided to deliberately be gratuitous and toe the line as close to what is legal in public as possible, it will only serve to turn off the people that any such demonstration might be intended to convert to their side. So, sure, I think it’s important to defend our rights. I don’t feel the need to walk around armed; hell, I don’t even own a gun. I don’t particularly like the idea of people walking around like that, it’s just unnecessary. However, just like how being a proponent of free speech means I need to accept that it means that, to protect the speech I think is important, it means allowing some speech I’m not fond of, that applies here too. That is, I don’t want to live in a place where reasonable people, reasonably armed, for good reasons can’t do so; I think it’s a right worth protecting. Unfortunately, that also means that there will be jackasses who will act in such a way and do things just because there’s laws that say they can. I think it’s a small cost worth paying. Really, more concerning to me is just how many police officers aren’t properly trained in what the law actually says about about carrying or, for that matter, other rights. It’s not just gun rights advocates, but I’ve seen other situations where police harrass advocates for things like free speech or whatever and clearly violated their rights too. In this day and age of the internet where people can more easily arrange for demonstrations and protests, I suspect that this sort of stuff will become more and more common and so the police need to not only have the training in what those rights are, but when called to respond to these sorts of situations, know how to properly defuse it. So, for instance, in a situation like the OP, I don’t think going up to a gun rights activist who is behaving legally and is likely fully aware of his rights and trying to get his ID is an effective way to handle the situation. There has to be a better way to both make the people who called the cops feel better about the situation and not get confrontational with someone who is basically begging to have a confrontation with police to decry harassment to raise awareness or get grounds for a lawsuit or something. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/28 "2014-10-02T18:00:02Z")
Why are so many Americans so fearful for their lives that they feel the need to be armed 24/7? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/29 "2014-10-02T18:07:25Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Why are so many Americans so fearful for their lives that they feel the need to be armed 24/7? I don’t think it’s fear; I think it’s “we can because we can”. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/30 "2014-10-02T18:35:17Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Couple things: Citizens described in the OP strike me as not any more patriotic or principled than anyone else, they’re just assholes and attention whores. Were the protestors in the People’s Climate March or Occupy Wall Street assholes and attention whores too, or is that different? > [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Why are so many Americans so fearful for their lives that they feel the need to be armed 24/7? There’s a lot of crazy people with guns over here. It’s a virtuous cycle. ---
**Author:** ![domesmasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@domesmasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/domesmasher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/31 "2014-10-02T19:01:40Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > One nitpick: depending on state laws, while you do not have to consent to a personal search without a warrant, you are not legally able to withhold your identification. > > IANAL, but I think this is correct in many states. You like anal too! What a coincidence, so does your mom! ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/32 "2014-10-02T19:08:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There was probably more snark in my post than I intended, but it was a legitimate question. I hadn’t considered that angle before, and I was curious about what was going on in the open carry community. I didn’t have time to do any research yesterday, so just now I poked around. > > Lo and behold, this [Facebook group](https://www.facebook.com/ohioopencarry) called Ohio Open Carry held an event at the Beavercreek Wal-Mart last weekend which they titled “I am John Crawford.” The comments… well, they’re still FB comments, but they’re overwhelmingly in defense of John Crawford. > > So I’d put that implicit racism card back in your deck on this hand. > > Here’s a [relevant Salon article](http://www.salon.com/2014/10/01/gun_nuts_tragic_confusion_why_open_carry_groups_misunderstand_police_brutality/) from yesterday as well. Good catch! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/33 "2014-10-02T19:23:04Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Here are some possibilities. > > If somebody walks into a restaurant with an AK-47 and I am dining at that venue, I will take reasonable steps to protect myself: I’ll leave the area without paying my bill. I will make note of the time and return and pay the bill when management has secured the area. It’s best to stay away from maniacs and fanatics. Evasion is a first principle of self defense. Actually, assuming they’re not pointing it at people and/or firing it, the smartest thing you could do in that situation would be to go up to them and say “Cool AK! Is that an Egyptian, Romanian or some other kind?” They’ll likely be very excited to tell you about it that as long as you don’t dick-out and criticize them or get sanctimonious or patronizing about guns. You might learn a thing or two. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/34 "2014-10-02T19:28:28Z")
> [@domesmasher](#): > > You like anal too! What a coincidence, so does your mom! domesmasher- Greetings and welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board. I hope you’ll poke around and enjoy our several fora and find much to entertain you. Unfortunately, here at the SDMB, and especially in Great Debates, we insist on a certain level of decorum from our posters. Your post, above, is entirely out of line here. You’re new so I want give you any form of sanction based on it, but be aware that in the future you could be warned for such insults and even banned from ever posting again. Let’s not have that happen. Again, welcome and I hope you’ll enjoy your stay. Jonathan Chance Moderator Great Debates ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/35 "2014-10-02T19:35:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Were the protestors in the People’s Climate March or Occupy Wall Street assholes and attention whores too, or is that different? I feel like I’m taking your bait here but…that would be different? ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/36 "2014-10-02T20:00:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Actually, assuming they’re not pointing it at people and/or firing it, the smartest thing you could do in that situation would be to go up to them and say “Cool AK! Is that an Egyptian, Romanian or some other kind?” > > They’ll likely be very excited to tell you about it that as long as you don’t dick-out and criticize them or get sanctimonious or patronizing about guns. You might learn a thing or two. Some people actually DON’T WANT to learn a thing or two about guns or anyone’s morbid fascination with them. Unless someone lives in an active war zone, there’ is ZERO logical reason for someone to walk around in their everyday life or run their daily errands openly carrying a gun. It’s just obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/37 "2014-10-02T20:25:45Z")
I despise both the gun-carrying troll trying to instigate a confrontation and the paranoia police who see everyone as a criminal. And I vote that we’ll be seeing these videos for years to come ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/38 "2014-10-02T20:28:55Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You might learn a thing or two. From some dude getting his jollies carrying around a rifle to shock people? No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/39 "2014-10-02T20:34:42Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I feel like I’m taking your bait here but…that would be different? Most people’s opinions on these stunts seem to depend on whether they agree with the cause. If you’re pro-gun, you probably think these guys are fighting for their freedoms and standing up against The Man. And these guys probably aren’t environmentalists, so they saw that big protest as a bunch of self-important douchebags preening for the cameras. Not exactly any bedrock principles involved either way, ya know? Something to chew on. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/40 "2014-10-02T21:06:48Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Unless someone lives in an active war zone, there’ is ZERO logical reason for someone to walk around in their everyday life or run their daily errands openly carrying a gun. It’s just obnoxious. I know right? Silly police, how obnoxious of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134.md?page=3)