# Are OPEN CARRY VS. POLICE street stops going to come to a head? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134 "2014-10-01T22:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/121 "2014-10-05T22:20:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If you are open carrying a fucking rifle in public then the police aren’t doing their jobs if they don’t at least stop and question you. [Devils Advocate] And what do you suggest happens when the open carrier refuses to talk to the police or even stop walking? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/122 "2014-10-05T23:10:06Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > [Devils Advocate] > > And what do you suggest happens when the open carrier refuses to talk to the police or even stop walking? At least in my state, you are required to show your carry permit on request by the police. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/123 "2014-10-05T23:42:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > At least in my state, you are required to show your carry permit on request by the police. If I’m not mistaken, doesn’t Mn issue a “permit to carry a pistol”? or does it include long guns? I was responding to a post about openly carrying a rifle. Here in Wisconsin open carry of pistols & rifles is legal. It was ruled protected under the state constitution by the state supreme court. Ironically that ruling came during a case involve concealed carry (back when that was illegal). State law also prohibits charging someone with disorderly conduct for open carry. Now the scenario: fellow is walking down a public sidewalk openly carrying a shotgun minding his own business. 911 calls prompt police response. Upon being approached he refuses to talk to police. What would the likes of **jtgain** have them do? An FI stop may land an officer in a legal trick bag. How is a Terry stop justified when no obvious crime is being committed. Police agencies across this state have been repeatedly successfully sued for detaining or even arresting open carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/124 "2014-10-05T23:49:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I don’t even think it is a reasonable reading. If the amendment had said that the right of militia members to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, then you might be on to something. But they didn’t say that; they said “the people.” The view I expressed upthread is roughly comparable to that of Justice John Paul Stevens. It isn’t fringe stuff. _My_ view, not that it matters, is that I accept Heller. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/125 "2014-10-05T23:51:48Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In every document mentioning the militia contemporary with the Second Amendment, the word is used to refer to the populace at large, the People. For a good specific example read the full text of [The Federalist #29](http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fed_29.html). In it, Hamilton uses the term “militia” as synonymous with “the great body of the yeomanry”. He even uses the exact phrase “well-regulated militia”, while specifically _refuting_ the idea that every citizen with a firearm must be under government supervision. So what? There’s nothing in the 2nd amendment that implies that regulating firearms is unconstitutional according to the view I expressed upthread. Just because you can have private militias, doesn’t mean they should necessarily be able to get their hands on chemical weapons without proper training or screening. That’s nutcase stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/126 "2014-10-06T00:45:52Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > So what? There’s nothing in the 2nd amendment that implies that regulating firearms is unconstitutional according to the view I expressed upthread. Just because you can have private militias, doesn’t mean they should necessarily be able to get their hands on chemical weapons without proper training or screening. That’s nutcase stuff. Then you get into the question of whether regulation includes “regulate out of existence”. The Second Amendment came about because of the proposed Constitution would give the federal government joint authority with the states to set standards for the militia and to summon it to arms in specified circumstances. It was feared that under that authority, potentially a federal tyranny could issue “stand down forever and turn in your guns” as a standing order. That’s why the amendment ended up including that part about “well-regulated”: so that an actual, practiced-with-using-guns citizenry would be there, not a paper militia that would exist only in theory. This wasn’t just speculation- the Framers were heavily influenced by the tumultuous history of 17th century England, and the lesson they took away from those interesting times was later phrased by Mao Zedong as “political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”. As for the “nerve gas, anthrax and nukes” argument, it’s hard to say since things like that couldn’t have been anticipated in the 18th century. A case could be made that the Contract Clause of the Constitution (Article One, Section Ten, 3rd clause) gives the federal government a monopoly on what we would now call “strategic weapons systems” intended to project military power against foreign nations. Certainly the _states_ can be forbidden to have their own weapons of mass destruction, and presumably citizens as well. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/127 "2014-10-06T01:02:06Z")
We are way off topic. My intent was to establish that banning open carry of semi-automatic rifles at Chipotle isn’t slam-dunk contradicted by the 2nd amendment: there are a range of plausible legal theories. Also I wanted to transcribe the full sentence of the 2nd amendment, which honestly needs to be done during these constitutional discussions. Speaking personally I’ve read Amendment 2 many times and can’t make heads or tails of it. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/128 "2014-10-06T01:34:33Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > For those of you who feel that it’s prudent to be afraid of someone carrying a gun–are you afraid of a random person driving a big, heavy hunk of metal? Do you cringe every time a car approaches, wondering if it might be driven by a suicidal maniac who wants to go out in a blaze of glory? > > I’m guessing not. And I’m also guessing that it’s because cars are so common. If I’m right, then you agree with the open-carry movement’s logic–you just apply it to cars instead of guns. > > Furthermore, open carriers are NOT paranoid. It is no more paranoid to carry a gun than it is to have a fire extinguisher in the house. The chance that you’ll need either one on any given day is vanishingly small. Indeed, you may go your whole life without ever needing either one. BUT–if you do need one, you’re apt to **really** need it, and fast. > > As the saying goes, “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.” If I had a dollar for every time a gun advocate pulls out the tired, old, car analogy… Cars are NOT specifically made for taking lives. People have a need to use vehicles in their everyday lives. There is NO similar use for guns and no similar rationale for the average person to have one. Not even close ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/129 "2014-10-06T01:40:33Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Yes, and they’re very, very late to the party. > > Which is exactly the same rationale strong gun-rights advocates give. “I won’t give up my guns until everyone else does.” You need your guns because everyone else has them. Cops need their excessive combat equipment because so many people have guns. You really CAN’T argue against one but not the other. When the person you’re making your argument against can use the exact same argument as you, that’s called circular reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/130 "2014-10-06T01:48:23Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > If I had a dollar for every time a gun advocate pulls out the tired, old, car analogy… I am a gun owner and I don’t agree with the car analogy. Cars don’t expel projectiles that can kill/maim from hundreds of yards away. I am a gun owner and live in an urban setting. If I see people open carrying, or otherwise know someone is concealed carrying, then I don’t have much reassurance as to their training or skills. Has anyone taken the Florida CCW class? From what I understand it’s 2.5 hours, including range time where you have 25 rounds to hit paper from 15 feet away. And _that_ qualifies one to carry concealed in Florida and 30+ states? I’m not comforted much. [US States that Honor My Permit](http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/USStatesThatHonorMyPermit.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/131 "2014-10-06T01:50:00Z")
That said, oh how I wish I could carry concealed in my home state of California!! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/132 "2014-10-06T02:16:26Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > If I had a dollar for every time a gun advocate pulls out the tired, old, car analogy… > > Cars are NOT specifically made for taking lives. People have a need to use vehicles in their everyday lives. There is NO similar use for guns and no similar rationale for the average person to have one. Not even close Your constitution says otherwise. It says the average person should have one, or at least be trained to use one, for when they are part of the militia. There’s other major differences between owning a car and a gun in America. Only the latter is a right, for example. Owning and using a car is a privilege the state can restrict as it sees fit, owning a gun is a fundamental right recognised by the constitution. I tend to think that the framers would have included the right to self-defence in there too, if it wasn’t so plainly self-evident. (And it’s really not great living somewhere that right isn’t recognised, like I do). Now, you may disagree with it being this way, but the answer is to change the constitution (it was changed to recognise that right in the first place), not to ignore it or water it down. Oh, and directly on topic for the thread, no-one’s ever been harmed by seeing a gun. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/133 "2014-10-06T02:17:54Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > I am a gun owner and I don’t agree with the car analogy. Cars don’t expel projectiles that can kill/maim from hundreds of yards away. > > I am a gun owner and live in an urban setting. If I see people open carrying, or otherwise know someone is concealed carrying, then I don’t have much reassurance as to their training or skills. > > Has anyone taken the Florida CCW class? From what I understand it’s 2.5 hours, including range time where you have 25 rounds to hit paper from 15 feet away. And _that_ qualifies one to carry concealed in Florida and 30+ states? > > I’m not comforted much. > > [US States that Honor My Permit](http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/USStatesThatHonorMyPermit.pdf) Are you saying they give you 25 rounds to hit a paper target ONCE from 15 feet away? ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/134 "2014-10-06T02:19:32Z")
Funny. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/135 "2014-10-06T02:20:30Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > [Devils Advocate] > > And what do you suggest happens when the open carrier refuses to talk to the police or even stop walking? IMHO, if an officer sees a person carrying a rifle in a populated area, he has a reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot. He may detain and disarm that person until he has dispelled that suspicion. Oh, it’s just an open carry advocate making a political point? On your way, then. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/136 "2014-10-06T02:27:28Z")
Yeah well if you were a cop who did that you wouldn’t have your job for long. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/137 "2014-10-06T02:27:54Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > IMHO, if an officer sees a person carrying a rifle in a populated area, he has a reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot. He may detain and disarm that person until he has dispelled that suspicion. Oh, it’s just an open carry advocate making a political point? On your way, then. Really? What gives him that suspicion? It can’t be carrying the weapon, if that’s legal. Someone trying to enter a private place with a weapon after being told they’re not welcome, you’d have a point. What crime do you believe someone, in an open carry state, could be committing by carrying a weapon? ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/138 "2014-10-06T02:32:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Your constitution says otherwise. It says the average person should have one, or at least be trained to use one, for when they are part of the militia. Nonsense. The constitution says nothing about “should”. NOT EVEN for militia. > [@Steophan](#): > > There’s other major differences between owning a car and a gun in America. Only the latter is a right, for example. Owning and using a car is a privilege the state can restrict as it sees fit, owning a gun is a fundamental right recognised by the constitution. I tend to think that the framers would have included the right to self-defence in there too, if it wasn’t so plainly self-evident. (And it’s really not great living somewhere that right isn’t recognised, like I do). > > Now, you may disagree with it being this way, but the answer is to change the constitution (it was changed to recognise that right in the first place), not to ignore it or water it down. > > Oh, and directly on topic for the thread, no-one’s ever been harmed by seeing a gun. The right is NOT absolute. The constitution doesn’t use the word “gun” anywhere. It uses the word “arm”. An automatic rifle is an “arm”, yet automatic rifles are banned for most Americans. So to use your point, the second amendment is ALREADY watered down. If it’s proper to restrict certain “arms”, it is no less proper to restrict the USE of certains arms such as openly carrying them in the street. At least in certain areas. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/139 "2014-10-06T03:03:02Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > You need your guns because everyone else has them. Cops need their excessive combat equipment because so many people have guns. You really CAN’T argue against one but not the other. Ummm… That’s kind of my point: if you’re going to accept the “it’s dangerous out there” rationale for arming police engaged in everyday routine policing in low-crime areas, then you have to accept it for ordinary citizens as well. If you reject that argument for citizens, you should reject it for police as well. I’m in the first camp. And you? Of course, just because one has the right to do something doesn’t make it good or wise, or that we can’t treat different levels of armament differently. So, for example, I personally have no problem people, police or not, carrying a holstered pistol; I think think people, police or not, walking around with an AR-15 are being assholes. Non-police doing it are within their rights, though, and as with most civil liberties, defending the principle means defending assholes. Similarly, most of us who are concerned about police militarization are not saying that no police anywhere ever need heavy weapons; just that heavy weapons are being deployed in ways that are unwise and poor policy. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134/140 "2014-10-06T03:16:29Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > IMHO, if an officer sees a person carrying a rifle in a populated area, he has a reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot. He may detain and disarm that person until he has dispelled that suspicion. Oh, it’s just an open carry advocate making a political point? On your way, then. That “opinion” would more than likely land you in civil court and the unemployment line, especially here. Legal precedent is against you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-open-carry-vs-police-street-stops-going-to-come-to-a-head/700134.md?page=8)