# Are Out of Body Experiences "real" and did the US military experiement with them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628 "2003-04-28T08:27:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Panopticon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Panopticon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panopticon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/1 "2003-04-28T08:27:36Z")
There are many web-sites and books discussing a phenomenon called OBE or out of body experiences whereby a person travels around the universe without her body. The various sources seem to have common aspects (such as a cord from the back of that neck that keeps you connected to your physical body). Has anyone here had such an experience? Is there a way to verify that the experience is not a dream? I have heard that the US military is known to have researched using OBE techniques to gain enemy intel, and that such research is openly known to have taken place. Is this in accordance with fact? Cheers, Panopticon ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/2 "2003-04-28T09:51:07Z")
They are real in the sense that they can feel very real. People can and do experience the sensation that they are not in their own body and are observing from the outside. I have. It was not a dream in the REM sleep sense. However, there is nothing that makes me think that I actually had the ability to perceive accurately what was going on from the POV that it seemed like I had. As far as I can tell, what I percieved was my mind’s construction of what the scene would look like from another view point. Most of the situations when this happened were events of extreme stress and terror for me. I have also had experiences very much like you describe as part of dreams. I do not believe that this allowed me to gain any objection knowledge. I think it was simply a perception. As for any proof that they are not simply a fantasy or dream, or construction of the mind, I have heard of none. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/3 "2003-04-28T10:33:58Z")
The DIA carried out Operation Stargate, a remote viewing program, from 1978 to 1995. Joe McMoneagle, the top remote viewer, was awarded the Legion of Merit for his work in it. He tells his story in the recently published book _The Stargate Chronicles: Memoirs of a Psychic Spy_. Joe went through a lot of personal hardship in his life, told in excruciating detail, but there was one part in the book that was as amusing as it was scary. He was practicing “lucid dreaming,” and had gotten so good at it that he would wake up in the sleep lab after a lucid dream, get up, go walking through the halls … only to find that he was still dreaming. So he would wake up, really wake up this time, get up, and go walking … only to find that he was still dreaming. He went through 5 or 6 layers of dreams embedded in one another like this before he truly woke up. ---
**Author:** ![CBCD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@CBCD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBCD)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/4 "2003-04-28T12:20:43Z")
My mother had an out-of-body experience 50 years ago when she had malaria. She was in the hospital with a dangerously high fever. The nurses were sponging her down to reduce the fever. All of a sudden she found herself floating on the ceiling, looking down at her body, watching the nurses working on her to reduce the fever. She said her reaction was that of dispassionate interest. This was long before she had ever heard of out-of-body experiences. There is no reason to think it was not a genuine experience. Her soul may not have ever left her body - but it sure seemed that way to her. She is of your standard country-club-Republican variety - not the typical OBE candidate. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/5 "2003-04-28T15:33:44Z")
Jomo Mojo, maybe you shouldn’t believe everything you read. The US gummint _did_ experiment with the nonsense called Remote Viewing several years ago. Apparently they finally realized that it was nonsense, because they ended the program. Now the people who participated as remote viewers are on their own, actually claiming that the government work validates RV! There’s a group of them called PsiTech who got some publicity last year when they did a press release, telling the police the area to search to find the body of Elizabeth Smart. I don’t expect it to be around much longer - RV makes very testable claims, but the RVers have never subjected themselves to an objective test. They can’t keep that up too much longer. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/6 "2003-04-29T02:49:46Z")
Huh? I was just relating what McMoneagle said in his book. As for the fact that the DIA ran Operation Stargate from 1978 to 1995, that McMoneagle worked for them, and that he was awarded the Legion of Merit, all this is factually verifiable. Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to lash out at everything you read, especially when a Doper is giving factual answers to a GQ question and you’re rarin’ for a GD. ---
**Author:** ![billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/7 "2003-04-29T04:03:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\* He was practicing “lucid dreaming,” and had gotten so good at it that he would wake up in the sleep lab after a lucid dream, get up, go walking through the halls … only to find that he was still dreaming. So he would wake up, really wake up this time, get up, and go walking … only to find that he was still dreaming. He went through 5 or 6 layers of dreams embedded in one another like this before he truly woke up. \*\* I had a similar experience once when I was in college. I was sleeping on a couch in the Memorial Union and woke up and left about 4 times, each time thinking, “wow, that was wierd, I thought I woke up from a dream, but that was also a dream.” I didn’t like the experience much as it was confusing. Anyway, I don’t see how an experience like that has any correlation to being a remote viewer. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/8 "2003-04-29T04:44:53Z")
I’m sorry, Jomo. Reading your first post, I got the impression that McMoneagle was getting your endorsement, although I see you were just stating factual information. I did have the best of intentions, though. I didn’t want to let anyone get the impression that this BS is real - after all, the Straight Dope is for _fighting_ ignorance. However, I don’t see how RV could ever be GD material - there ain’t nothing there to debate. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/9 "2003-04-29T05:27:33Z")
Most psychologists and psychiatrists would classify “Out-of-body-experiences” as a type of dissasociative disorder. Disorder might be misleading - tripping out when you have malaria is nothing to worry about. Spending the majority of your life “outside” of your body is potentially something that a mental health intervention might be indicated for. ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/10 "2003-04-29T05:39:29Z")
I’ve had them in conjunction with sleep paralysis, which is a state that can occur in which (to put it simply) your mind wakes up while your body stays asleep and paralyzed from REM sleep for a minute or so. In this state, you’re very susceptible to hallucinations. My OBEs were actually deliberately induced, since I figured that if I was going to be paralyzed in my bed, I might as well have some fun. There’s nothing to indicate that such experiences aren’t hallucinations. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/11 "2003-04-29T07:29:19Z")
**CurtC** said: > [@](#): > > However, I don’t see how RV could ever be GD material - there ain’t nothing there to debate. Dude, if you think that, you don’t get out much. Or maybe that’s don’t get in much. I mean, people argue the validity of the moon landings. Heck, one nutjob (who posted here for a while) claimed he could analyze photos of the moon and show the close-up ground in the pictures was actually high altitude imagery used as a background with images superimposed over them. His proof came from studying the images with a magnifying glass - on his computer monitor. There is literally no end to the things people will accept and argue as true. > [@](#): > > I don’t expect it to be around much longer - RV makes very testable claims, but the RVers have never subjected themselves to an objective test. They can’t keep that up too much longer. That hasn’t stopped dowsers, psychics, talkers to the dead, homeopathy, and any sundry other claims of equal merit. Okay, I’ll stop hijacking the thread. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/12 "2003-04-29T13:45:51Z")
Well, you’re right. I don’t get over to the GD section very often, because I don’t have the patience for all the Jews vs. Arabs debates, socialism vs. capitalism, etc. I guess my impression of that section is of people getting all worked up over things which reasonable people can actually disagree about. I didn’t realize that dowsing, homeopathy, and moon hoaxes got debated very often there. Still, I think RV is more easily tested than any of that stuff. You don’t have to conduct extended medical epidemiology or dig dozens of water wells to show that someone can’t match his own “remotely viewed” drawings with the places he was supposed to be viewing. That is one thing that I find a little fascinating about the RV people - they’re so hung up on all their protocols, and how the data must be interpreted after the fact by someone else, that they can’t seem to see the simple fact that a true test for their claimed ability would be really simple to pull off. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/13 "2003-04-29T23:12:06Z")
Nobel laureate physicist Richard Feynmann trained himself to have “out of body experiences”, just for the fun of it, and he did do experiments. His conclusion was that, while it sure seemed real to him, he wasn’t actually able to get any information. So, for instance, if someone taped a sign to the door outside his room beforehand, he was able, in his experience, to see the sign, and read the word, but the word he read wasn’t the right one (he had arranged the experiment with the person putting up the sign, so he knew there would be a sign). ---
**Author:** ![bryanmcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@bryanmcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryanmcc)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/14 "2003-04-30T00:50:30Z")
Similarly, I have heard of emergency room doctors conducting experiments where they place pictures of easily recognizable people, such as Elvis, on top of tall objects, so that they can only be viewed from an overhead vantage point. Then, when a person claims to have an out of body experience (which seems to be a perfectly understandable hallucination during traumatic situations), they are asked if they observed anything odd about the setting. Obviously, no one does. Of course, I have no site for this, cannot remember where I read it (possibly a Feynmann or Carl Sagan book), and am too lazy to Google it, but it certainly seems more reasonable than believing that the soul of the dearly nearly-departed is hovering overhead, checking things out. And it’d certainly be an easy experiment to conduct. Anyone who feels so inclined is welcome to site the reference, if they recognize it. Also, there’s the fact that if anyone _did_ produce positive evidence with this easy experiment, they’d certainly claim the Randi Prize, and no one has yet done so. ---
**Author:** ![Purplefloyd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7cd45c/32.png) [@Purplefloyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Purplefloyd)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/15 "2003-04-30T00:55:34Z")
I had an AMAZING out of body experience once, it was quite a thrill! I was lying in bed and suddenly felt like my body was floating and sinking and moving around the room. It lasted about 15 minutes, i just kept floating and spinning and moving- thats the only way i can describe it. I was about 16 at the time. I was wide awake, no drugs or anything. I have been able to reproduce the effect 8 to 10 times since then but not as intense as that first time, it takes deep relaxation. I’m pretty sure that there is nothing supernatural about it, but it sure was an incredible experience. One theory is that OBE’s are induced by electromagnetic fields interacting with the brain, anyway, OBE’s are ALOT of fun. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-out-of-body-experiences-real-and-did-the-us-military-experiement-with-them/171628/16 "2003-05-02T06:52:56Z")
**CurtC** , actually I wasn’t specifically talking about GD (I don’t hang out there much), but rather on the web in general. Though there is currently a dowsing thread (carried over from a Cecil Column), there was a homeopathy thread in CC not too long ago, and I hang out on another board that discusses the moon hoax. You’re still hung up on the misconception that evidence means anything to these people. Everything is filtered through their mindset. Subjectivity is not a bane, but a blessing - they seek it out and claim that’s the best way to understand the experiences. I’ve had a lengthy email debate with my brother over psychic abilities, and it’s mind-boggling when you point out how their interpretations are subjective projections onto the situation, and they agree and say that’s what makes them real. Unless you meant debate based upon balanced evidence and logic. Then you’re right, there’s not much to debate. 😉