# Are Palestinians in Gaza a distinct ethnic group? Is pushing Palestinians out of Gaza "ethnic cleansing?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255 "2023-10-07T22:16:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/1 "2023-10-07T22:16:56Z")
Given the current attacks in Israel by Hamas along the Gaza strip a [discussion on the SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234) about it has formed. Some posters are saying if Israel clears out Gaza it amounts to ethnic cleansing. From that thread: > @Walken_After_Midnight , [post:56, topic:991234](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/56)"] > That would be ethnic cleansing and a crime against humanity. And… > @Machine_Elf ,[post:65, topic:991234](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/65)" > Ethnic relocation is ethnic cleansing: I found this quote from Zuheir Mohsen: > The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. - [SOURCE](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen) _ **Zuheir Mohsen** ([Arabic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): زهير محسن; 1936 – 25 July 1979) was a [Palestinian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people) leader of the pro-Syria [As-Sa’iqa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Sa%27iqa) Ba’athist faction of the [Palestine Liberation Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization) (PLO) between 1971 and 1979. - [SOURCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen)_ In Wikipedia, [Palestinians are defined as an “ethnonational group”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians) which is distinct from an [ethnic group.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnonational_group) Secondly, is it ethnic cleansing if you push a people out of a place because they repeatedly attack you? Is a country just meant to put up with it endlessly? This has been going on between Gaza and Israel for many decades. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/2 "2023-10-07T22:32:59Z")
This is in incredibly bad taste. Israel is not about to push 2.5 million people put of Gaza. This is a right-wing American fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/3 "2023-10-07T22:41:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Secondly, is it ethnic cleansing if you push a people out of a place because they repeatedly attack you? Is a country just meant to put up with it endlessly? This has been going on between Gaza and Israel for many decades. The people are not the government. I expect this war will result in the end of the Hamas regime in Gaza and likely a very long occupation, but I don’t see mass relocations taking place. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/4 "2023-10-07T22:51:37Z")
Yes, it would be ethnic cleansing. That’s millions of people, the vast majority of whom are not engaging in any violence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/5 "2023-10-07T22:52:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, it would be ethnic cleansing. It also is not something that Israel would ever do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/6 "2023-10-07T22:53:36Z")
I doubt they physically could (strong as the IDF is, 2.5 million people is a huge number), and I hope you are correct that they wouldn’t try. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/7 "2023-10-07T22:56:12Z")
Maybe rhetoric but this was posted by @Walken_After_Midnight in the other thread (just giving credit since I did not find this): > ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/8 "2023-10-07T22:56:30Z")
I’m not modding anyone in this thread, but issuing a cautionary note: This is an incredibly sensitive and fraught topic. Please be extra careful to discuss this matter within our rules, with civility and respect for opposing points of view. As always, you can make your points forcefully – but not with scorn or snark. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/9 "2023-10-07T23:01:12Z")
Hamas is known to use civilians as human shields by putting their missile batteries on civilian apartment blocks and hospitals and the like. This is a warning that those tactics will not dissuade Israel from striking legitimate targets even if there is a risk of collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/10 "2023-10-07T23:01:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe rhetoric but this was posted by @Walken_After_Midnight in the other thread: > > [https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401](https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401) Here’s what Netanyahu said: > [@](#): > > כל המקומות שהחמאס מסתתר בהם ופועל בתוכם - נהפוך אותם לעיי חורבות. אני אומר לתושבי עזה, צאו משם עכשיו An accurate translation reads, ‘All the places that Hamas hides in and operates from - we will turn them into rubble. I am telling the citizens of Gaza, leave these places now.’ He’s talking about destroying specific buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/11 "2023-10-07T23:21:44Z")
People are surprisingly (or sadly not I guess) blase about the reality about what while happen during the forcible depopulation millions of people. Only the most blood thirsty would fantasize about it. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/12 "2023-10-07T23:30:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > An accurate translation reads, ‘All the places that Hamas hides in and operates from - we will turn them into rubble. I am telling the citizens of Gaza, leave these places now.’ > > He’s talking about destroying specific buildings. Netanyahu said: > [@](#): > > All the places where Hamas is organized, of this city of evil, all the places where Hamas hides, operates from - we will turn them into cities of ruins. > > I say to the residents of Gaza: get out of there now, because we will act everywhere and with all the strength. > You’d know if you’d read the very next line you were quoting in full. The irony is almost too perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/13 "2023-10-07T23:39:39Z")
There are plenty of examples of larger populations being displaced throughout history. It doesn’t happen quickly, but it has happened. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/14 "2023-10-07T23:43:26Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > You’d know if you’d read the very next line you were quoting in full. > > The irony is almost too perfect He does not say “cities of ruin”. He is 100% talking about people leaving specific buildings, not Gaza as a whole. Quoting the same shitty translation again won’t fool me when I can read the original 🤦‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/15 "2023-10-07T23:48:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There are plenty of examples of larger populations being displaced throughout history. It doesn’t happen quickly, but it has happened. I didn’t say it isn’t _possible_. I said that Israel is not about to do it. Unlike Hamas, Israel does not engage in ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/16 "2023-10-08T00:16:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …Israel does not engage in ethnic cleansing. And this circles back to the OP’s original question. Is it “ethnic cleansing?” Your first post said, “This is in incredibly bad taste.” I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that you thought the thread was meant to make an awful thing less awful and thus acceptable. Yet, you are using the phrase to dial up the “badness” of it all (else why put it there?). War is bad, ethnic cleansing is worse. Indeed, I think the phrase has legal ramifications at the UN and in the International Court of Justice. I agree that there is nothing “nice” about any of this. It is awful. I am shocked and wonder why Hamas did this now and it will only lead to more awful things in the near future. But, I disagree that it is “ethnic cleansing” if Israel embarks on a years long effort to clear out Gaza. They are not trying to wipe out an ethnic group that is, arguably, not even a distinct ethnic group (see OP). I also do not think one can claim “ethnic cleansing” if that group is regularly and without respite trying to kill you…constantly. How long should anyone put up with that? We are far beyond one attack or a few. This is a decades old, non-stop effort. Indeed, hasn’t it been the policy of those surrounding Israel to wipe them off the face of the earth (and they have tried with great effort…more than once)? Isn’t that “ethnic cleansing?” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/17 "2023-10-08T00:19:58Z")
Most Gazans, and most Palestinians, are not engaged in a violent effort to eliminate Israel. You’re making the same all too common mistake - presuming that Gazans and Palestinians are a monolith. They’re not. They’re just people. Most of them just want a chance at a decent life. Yes, of course trying to expel millions of men, women, and children from the place they and their ancestors have been living for generations is ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/18 "2023-10-08T00:34:45Z")
I think this goes to the local population aiding and abetting Hamas. Where are Hamas troops drawn from? How often do locals inform on a rocket battery being setup next to their house or inform on a tunnel used to smuggle arms in and so on? We had this in WWII where it was Total War. Civilians were fair game. They were not completely innocent. They supported the war in myriad ways (growing food, working in factories and whatnot). The civilians enabled the war machine to operate. I’m not sure where you draw the line but I am not sure one can say the residents of Gaza have nothing to do with what is happening because it’s really just a 1,000 bad guys causing all the fuss and everyone else has no part in it. And I get how that is all a slippery slope to atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/19 "2023-10-08T00:48:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And this circles back to the OP’s original question. Is it “ethnic cleansing?” > > Your first post said, “This is in incredibly bad taste.” I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that you thought the thread was meant to make an awful thing less awful and thus acceptable. I think the issue is with the assumption loaded into the OP that forcibly ejecting millions of people from Gaza is something anyone would contemplate as a “solution”. Nothing hinges on what we would _call_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/20 "2023-10-08T00:56:18Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think the issue is with the assumption loaded into the OP that forcibly ejecting millions of people from Gaza is something anyone would contemplate as a “solution”. What solution is there then? Many countries have worked diligently and put great effort into stopping the violence in that part of the world. I can’t overstate this…HUGE effort has been put into finding a solution for decades (50+ years). This latest attack by Hamas is unusual in its scope and violence. Apparently nothing that has been tried so far has diminished the will of Hamas to cause mayhem. Do you have a solution that will work? Something no one has thought of in the last 50+ years to stop this? Do you think Israel just has to suck-up such violence and do nothing more than blow up a few buildings every time in response? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255.md?page=2)