# Are people less likely to get into fisticuffs today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 26, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222 "2014-12-26T17:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/1 "2014-12-26T17:39:03Z")
In [another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18004388), folks are talking about the fighting skills of the average man. A side question has come up, and I’m having trouble finding an answer to it. Briefly, how common are fistfights (or other unarmed fights) today compared to in the past? Steven Pinker has suggested that the world is far less violent today than at any previous point in human history, but I’m not sure how that compares for unarmed fights of the sort that might happen outside of bars. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/2 "2014-12-26T20:54:43Z")
Watching movies made before 1970, you certainly get the impression that a lot of people back then (mainly males) had a “chip on their shoulder” and were short-fused. Seems like every bar scene in those movies had a fight in it. My dad has told me stories of getting in bar fights when he was in his early 20s. He never mentioned of anyone getting arrested. Start a fight today, and you’re virtually guaranteed to be looking at assault charges. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/3 "2014-12-26T21:02:11Z")
Related question: when did this change? Popular culture from the mid-20th century and earlier genuinely seems to approve of men fistfighting if sufficiently provoked, though I don’t know how much that reflects actual society. I’ve never been in a fistfight, and can’t even imagine the circumstances that would make me swing at someone. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/4 "2014-12-26T21:03:06Z")
I can’t imagine it being too much different. I lived in the Los Angeles, coastal suburbs. Very middle to upper middle class for the most part. Certain areas at bars known for fights, parks and driveins known for fights, cruising areas that could get pretty tense, etc. Fights were still not an everyday thing. This was in the 60’s and 70’s. I still see the same thing happening today. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/5 "2014-12-26T21:07:56Z")
I tried going at it though “mutual assault” and most of the stuff coming back was more domestic violence. But if you have the time to sort through stuff --------- My bet are they are less common but not because we are less violent. I’m betting that stuff that ended up in a basic fistfight 40 years ago now ends up as assault with a weapon of some kind or some sort of attack on property. People are still people and more than willing to get mad, even and/or ahead. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/6 "2014-12-26T22:09:22Z")
[This source](http://www.vrc.crim.cam.ac.uk/vrcresearch/paperdownload/manuel-eisner-historical-trends-in-violence.pdf) (pdf) at least states that there has been a long term “drop in male-to-male conflicts in public space” and from the meat of the paper: > [@](#): > > … many historians point out that what seems to have been > impulsive and spontaneous violence often was more culturally guided > than might first be suspected. Male honor seems to have played an important > role here. Thus Liliequist (1999, p. 197) finds that boxing ears, > issuing challenges, fighting and combat interrupted by temporary reconciliation, > and drinking rituals constituted the pattern of a culture of > fighting, which was the backdrop of the vast majority of homicide cases > in early modern Scandinavia. Hence, insults constituted a serious affront > and a large class of crimes dealt with by any court of medieval > and early modern society; throughout Europe knife fighting appears to > have been the appropriate reaction if efforts for reconciliation failed. > During the transition to lower overall homicide rates, however, the > relative share of family killings appears to have increased continuously, > which in turn suggests that overt public fights between men resulting > in serious injury became progressively less frequent. Knife fighting, for > example, became restricted to the lower classes in late seventeenth century > Amsterdam and all but disappeared as a distinct culture of violence > by the late eighteenth century (Spierenburg 1998). In a similar > vein, the decline of homicide in late nineteenth-century Italy, to a large > extent, probably resulted from the disappearance of public fights between > men over issues of honor. The decline of private revenge and > the vendetta—an almost exclusively male prerogative, too—also appear > to be associated with the overall drop in homicide rates. In countries > such as England or Sweden, as a result, family homicide accounted > for more than half of the killings by the end of the nineteenth > century, when the overall level of homicide rates was at most one-tenth > of that before the sixteenth century. … ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/7 "2014-12-26T22:44:40Z")
Seems to me that the legal consequences of a fistfight are taken more seriously than they were in decades past. You get into a fight with someone, you could get sued, arrested, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/8 "2014-12-26T23:15:31Z")
It’s definitely not considered socially acceptable anymore. Or, to put it another way, it’s considered a hallmark of lower class, white trash people to resort to physical violence easily, whereas in earlier times even decent middle class folks could still ‘defend their honor’ that way. In fact, back then calling the police would probably have been considered ‘wimpy’. Violence behind closed doors (i.e. domestic violence) I feel is related, but still another matter. People are more likely (expected) to report fighting neighbors whereas back then you minded your own business (even including parents beating their kids). It’s still a tricky subject for me today, I really don’t like people who think they have to immediately call CPS if a parent so much as spanks their kid. There is the issue of society being more litigious today in terms of fighting, but it’s hard to say if this is a cause or an effect. There’s also the idea of leaded gasoline having been removed from the atmosphere reducing violence, but that’s kind of a whole 'nother discussion… ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/9 "2014-12-26T23:19:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Steven Pinker has suggested that the world is far less violent today than at any previous point in human history, but I’m not sure how that compares for unarmed fights of the sort that might happen outside of bars. them’s fightin’ words. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/10 "2014-12-27T00:16:18Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [This source](http://www.vrc.crim.cam.ac.uk/vrcresearch/paperdownload/manuel-eisner-historical-trends-in-violence.pdf) (pdf) at least states that there has been a long term “drop in male-to-male conflicts in public space” and from the meat of the paper: DSeid, thank you for that cite, very interesting! (Some of the rest of y’all jokers, though, I tell you what). It does seem to confirm what I suspected, namely, that fistfights are much less common now than they used to be. Pinker argues that several factors are in play: -Increased efficacy of the state make it better at protecting folks from violence, providing a disincentive to those who would start fights; -At the same time, if the state can protect you, it’s less important to have a reputation as a Bad Ass Mother Fucker (I may be paraphrasing here)–without an effective state, a terrifying reputation can serve to protect you from violence; -Increased cosmopolitanism leads to fewer fights against “outsiders”, that is, folks who ain’t from 'round these parts (or who look gay or whatever); -Improvements in education all folks to consider the consequences of violence more rationally. I think he offers other factors, but these all seem to me to be significant. In teaching I observe that the kids who are most prone to violence **tend** to be kids from violent neighborhoods (shocker, I know), and often it turns out that their parents have taught them that it’s appropriate to hit someone who insults their family; in their neighborhood, this may be a rational response to violence, since a failure to respond in this way may mark them as prey for bullies. The school, however, is pretty good these days at protecting kids from violence during school hours, and so what works in their neighborhood may be much less effective at school. And if schools across the nation/world are engaged in a similar project of teaching young kids to let authority handle violence rather than handling it themselves, that might have a strong generational effect. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/11 "2014-12-27T00:49:57Z")
Is much different now. When I was much younger I can recall getting into quite a few bar fights, mostly for the fun of it. I was no tough guy, but it was just what happened when you get a room full of twenty one year old drunk guys. Now that I conceal carry, I wouldn’t dream of getting into a fight. If anything I’ll do everything I can to walk away. Also, with the large numbers of people concealed carrying I would be to scared these days of getting shot. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/12 "2014-12-27T00:58:08Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > There’s also the idea of leaded gasoline having been removed from the atmosphere reducing violence, but that’s kind of a whole 'nother discussion… I’d bet that’s a big factor. It certainly had a big effect on violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/13 "2014-12-27T02:16:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Seems to me that the legal consequences of a fistfight are taken more seriously than they were in decades past. You get into a fight with someone, you could get sued, arrested, or both. [As the American in this story has now found out all too well](http://www.koreaobserver.com/korean-groper-dies-from-americans-fist-24979). He’s likely to spend more than a little time in a Korean prison. Lesson learned: Don’t be a vigilante, especially in a foreign country. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/14 "2014-12-27T03:15:49Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > ::: snip :::::. Now that I conceal carry, I wouldn’t dream of getting into a fight. If anything I’ll do everything I can to walk away… > :::: snip ::::: Pretty much this ↑ ↑ ↑ 🆒 I have to hobble, walking is for healthy people. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/15 "2014-12-27T04:44:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Seems to me that the legal consequences of a fistfight are taken more seriously than they were in decades past. You get into a fight with someone, you could get sued, arrested, or both. This is the direction things are headed in the public schools. No kids got arrested for fighting back in the 80s (that I knew of, anyway). It happens regularly now, though, in some places more than others. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/16 "2014-12-27T04:45:40Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Is much different now. When I was much younger I can recall getting into quite a few bar fights, mostly for the fun of it. I was no tough guy, but it was just what happened when you get a room full of twenty one year old drunk guys. Now that I conceal carry, I wouldn’t dream of getting into a fight. If anything I’ll do everything I can to walk away. Also, with the large numbers of people concealed carrying I would be to scared these days of getting shot. I’m not tweaking you, pulling your change, or anything of that sort; I’m just genuinely curious. If you know yourself, know that you had a history of engaging in violence “for the fun of it,” why would you go around carrying a weapon, concealed or otherwise? You say you anything to avoid a fight. Wouldn’t _not_ carrying a weapon decrease the odds of a fight you end up in ending up with a fatality? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/17 "2014-12-27T06:22:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > [As the American in this story has now found out all too well](http://www.koreaobserver.com/korean-groper-dies-from-americans-fist-24979). He’s likely to spend more than a little time in a Korean prison. > > Lesson learned: Don’t be a vigilante, especially in a foreign country. That report makes it sound like a series of escalations on both sides. Sad story all around. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/18 "2014-12-27T06:31:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m not tweaking you, pulling your change, or anything of that sort; I’m just genuinely curious. If you know yourself, know that you had a history of engaging in violence “for the fun of it,” why would you go around carrying a weapon, concealed or otherwise? You say you anything to avoid a fight. Wouldn’t _not_ carrying a weapon decrease the odds of a fight you end up in ending up with a fatality? People change, my dad told me he used to get in bar fights as a late teen/early twentysomething and he stopped after an older guy he tried to pick a fight with produced a concealed dillinger and shot him, saw the scar he said that woke him up. In my whole life with him I never saw him be aggressive, try to start a fight, or respond to someone else’s taunts. You know now considering it, I’m thinking this bar fight stuff was a part of male culture in a particular time period around the 40s-60s and has since died out mostly. I know if I told people I was going to look for a bar fight they would call me a BEEPing idiot. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/19 "2014-12-27T06:43:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m not tweaking you, pulling your change, or anything of that sort; I’m just genuinely curious. If you know yourself, know that you had a history of engaging in violence “for the fun of it,” why would you go around carrying a weapon, concealed or otherwise? You say you anything to avoid a fight. Wouldn’t _not_ carrying a weapon decrease the odds of a fight you end up in ending up with a fatality? My fighting days are long behind me. I would say the 25 + years have matured me. Being young and stupid led to some interesting times back then. My nearly 50 year old self isn’t interested in testosterone fueled displays of trying to be “a man”. I carry a weapon because I am aware that there are those out the that are willing to bring harm to myself or my family. I also know the chance of me ever having to use my weapon to defend myself is extremely remote. But, I’d rather be prepared and ready than to not be. The same reason I keep a fire extinguisher in the house. I’ve never had a house fire and probably never will, but I’m prepared for the event should it happen. One intersting thing about your mindset when you chose to carry, it changes the way you think. You, I believe, become more apt not to engage in a altercation. You will walk away instead of engaging someone trying to start trouble because you know the risks are too high. The last thing I want to do is use my weapon against another human and I will do everything in my power to avoid it. However, if my life or my family’s life is on the line I certainly would not hesitate. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222/20 "2014-12-27T10:29:09Z")
The concealed carry factor is probably irrelevant. Fisticuffs has declined in the UK as well and almost exactly no-one carries concealed firearms here. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-less-likely-to-get-into-fisticuffs-today/708222.md?page=2)