# Are people too willing to pull life support? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648 "2006-01-19T13:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/21 "2006-01-19T23:41:54Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > But you as an adult can make that choice, me I want to live forever even if it is on tubes and ventilaters and diaper changes. This was a child, you cannot put your views onto her, the state cannot impose there views on her. And apparently by responding to stimuli, breathing again, she doesn’t agree with the choice they made for her. You say alive and suffering, any cites to back up they are suffering? The fact that her life will be so drastically different, pointless, and non-productive is suffering. She may not have any pain, but she isn’t who she was, nor will she ever be even a shadow of who she was, before the beating. Breathing ain’t living. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/22 "2006-01-19T23:51:49Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Plenty of people would want to be unplugged when in a PVS. I’m one of them, so “NEVER UNPLUG anyone” doesn’t work well for me. [82% of Americans agree with DMC that they would not want to be kept alive in a PVS](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/opinion/polls/main682674.shtml). There’s a _very_ good chance that you’re going against someone’s wishes if you never unplug anyone. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/23 "2006-01-20T00:06:17Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I don’t get what the big deal is. I thought in a PVS you could still breathe on your own. In the Schiavo case it was whether food and water could be removed that was the issue. It looks like it’s going to turn into the same thing though. Haleigh is breathing without assistance according to that article, but she can’t swallow, so the feeding tube is still connected. The next question will be whether or not to remove the feeding tube; is Haleigh still “there,” or is it just automatic brain function (as it appears since the article only mentions breathing)? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/24 "2006-01-20T00:13:47Z")
We talk about this all the time in my family. My father has drawn up the papers giving me authority to make the plug decision if or when the time comes. As hard as that will be for me, it will be infinitely easier than watching him exist with no more personality than a paperweight. I’m glad he felt I understood him well enough to give me the job. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/25 "2006-01-20T00:13:58Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The fact that her life will be so drastically different, pointless, and non-productive is suffering. She may not have any pain, but she isn’t who she was, nor will she ever be even a shadow of who she was, before the beating. > > Breathing ain’t living. Breathing is not responding to outside stimuli either is it? This is a case where they said it was PVS lets pull the plug, now they are saying > [@](#): > > suspended plans to end life support for an 11-year-old girl beaten into a coma, saying her condition had changed, just two days after a court cleared the way for her to be allowed to die. [http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3546403a12,00.html](http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3546403a12,00.html) And > [@](#): > > Doctors in Springfield, Mass., have elicited responses from Haleigh and plan more tests [http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/6237634/detail.html](http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/6237634/detail.html) So to defend your views you would want to pull her plug? This girl is fighting for life it would seem, and you don’t want to help her? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/26 "2006-01-20T00:25:40Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Breathing is not responding to outside stimuli either is it? This is a case where they said it was PVS lets pull the plug, now they are saying > > [http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3546403a12,00.html](http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3546403a12,00.html) > > And > > [http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/6237634/detail.html](http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/6237634/detail.html) > > So to defend your views you would want to pull her plug? This girl is fighting for life it would seem, and you don’t want to help her? I believe that they’re doing more tests to appease the family. I think they truly believe they will not see a marked improvement in a child who was beaten so badly that her brain was sheared. Do people sometimes get a little better? Of course they do. But if they couldn’t tell me with any reasonable certainty that my child would enjoy her life, if they couldn’t assure me that she would even have a meaningful degree of self-awareness, I could not in good conscience want her to live that way. This child, in all probability, will never sit quietly reading a book, will never process the information she sees on TV (if she ever sees anything again), will have people changing her diapers every day for the rest of her life. They’ll feed her and bathe her, but they’ll never have a quality interaction with her again. She doesn’t deserve the indignity. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/27 "2006-01-20T00:35:08Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I believe that they’re doing more tests to appease the family. I think they truly believe they will not see a marked improvement in a child who was beaten so badly that her brain was sheared. Do people sometimes get a little better? Of course they do. But if they couldn’t tell me with any reasonable certainty that my child would enjoy her life, if they couldn’t assure me that she would even have a meaningful degree of self-awareness, I could not in good conscience want her to live that way. > > This child, in all probability, will never sit quietly reading a book, will never process the information she sees on TV (if she ever sees anything again), will have people changing her diapers every day for the rest of her life. They’ll feed her and bathe her, but they’ll never have a quality interaction with her again. She doesn’t deserve the indignity. It is an indignity to you but life for her, how in the heck do you know what goes on in her mind? She could be in a state of dream land, hell I have had dreams where I did not want to be woke from. So maybe thats what her life would consist of 80 plus years of running through the fields picking flowers. Or maybe it will be a life of hell. The point is you do not know, and not knowing is the reason it should not be done. Period. In all probability? In all probability she was not supposed to breathe on her own, she was not supposed to react to stimuli and yet she out did the odds. That was why the courts allowed her to be killed, because she was never going to improve, two days later she is improving, kind of negates that view eh. Appease the family? Did you even read about this? Commenting on something you know nothing about is a sign of being argumentive not debating. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/28 "2006-01-20T00:55:54Z")
If an adult suffers from PVS, we’d respect any wishes that they had voiced or written down, either to remain on life support or be removed from it. If a child suffers from PVS, we respect the wishes of the parent(s) in that regard. In this particular case, the parents have shown themselves in the past to be grossly unqualified to make decisions to the benefit of the child, so custody was turned over to the state, who then makes the decisions for the child. In this and any other case of a patient diagnosed with PVS, if they show any signs of potential awareness, I’m fine with performing further tests until we feel comfortable with the diagnosis. It sounds that is exactly what is happening, I’m not feeling very outraged at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/29 "2006-01-20T01:02:30Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > In this and any other case of a patient diagnosed with PVS, if they show any signs of potential awareness, I’m fine with performing further tests until we feel comfortable with the diagnosis. It sounds that is exactly what is happening, I’m not feeling very outraged at the moment. Same here. And her biological mother evidently shares our opinions, according to those articles. > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > This girl is fighting for life it would seem, and you don’t want to help her? The fact that her body is trying to live does not indicate that she would necessarily _want_ to live, and whether the person on life support would want to live is the important question here. If someone’s body is failing and shutting down, is that evidence that they _don’t_ want to live? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/30 "2006-01-20T01:12:14Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > If an adult suffers from PVS, we’d respect any wishes that they had voiced or written down, either to remain on life support or be removed from it. If a child suffers from PVS, we respect the wishes of the parent(s) in that regard. In this particular case, the parents have shown themselves in the past to be grossly unqualified to make decisions to the benefit of the child, so custody was turned over to the state, who then makes the decisions for the child. > > In this and any other case of a patient diagnosed with PVS, if they show any signs of potential awareness, I’m fine with performing further tests until we feel comfortable with the diagnosis. It sounds that is exactly what is happening, I’m not feeling very outraged at the moment. My outrage is on the doctors who testified that she would never improve only to hear now that childrens brains are better able to improve under these circumstances. They where using her life as a means to get the miserable bastard that put her in this state. Not fair to her, that our criminal justice system isn’t fair and doesn’t treat attempted murder as murder no matter of the outcome of the act. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/31 "2006-01-20T01:18:54Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > My outrage is on the doctors who testified that she would never improve only to hear now that childrens brains are better able to improve under these circumstances. They where using her life as a means to get the miserable bastard that put her in this state. Are you actually implying that the doctors lied about her condition to get revenge on her dad? I’m going to want to see some evidence if that’s what you’re getting at. > [@](#): > > Not fair to her, that our criminal justice system isn’t fair and doesn’t treat attempted murder as murder no matter of the outcome of the act. The “fairness” to her is probably never going to be certain, as we’d have to know what she would want in this situation, and I’m betting that won’t be happening. As for attempted murder and murder carrying the same penalties, I think that’s a different debate for a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/32 "2006-01-20T01:39:03Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Are you actually implying that the doctors lied about her condition to get revenge on her dad? I’m going to want to see some evidence if that’s what you’re getting at. > > The “fairness” to her is probably never going to be certain, as we’d have to know what she would want in this situation, and I’m betting that won’t be happening. As for attempted murder and murder carrying the same penalties, I think that’s a different debate for a different thread. No I am implying what I said in my OP that we as a nation believe to much in doctors opinions. When in fact there is a mine load of information about the functioning of the human body not known yet. As for them lying, no, hiding things yes. How did I come up with this nice little bit of information? Easy during the court battle multiple doctors said “PVS” no hope of recovery blah blah blah. Now the doctors are saying well all that stuff posted above about her improving along with the tidbit about childrens brains being more adept at improving in these conditions. If you as a member of a jury only felt 90% certain that the defendent was guilty and a guilty verdict meant the death penalty would you say guilty? I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/33 "2006-01-20T02:03:56Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > No I am implying what I said in my OP that we as a nation believe to much in doctors opinions. When it comes time to decide if I am suffering from PVS or not, I’d like doctors to perform the diagnosis. You are free to choose others to perform your’s if you are in a similar situation. > [@](#): > > When in fact there is a mine load of information about the functioning of the human body not known yet. Certainly, but it’s not like we’re completely in the dark, either. I’d much rather have the proper professionals making educated determinations, based on the knowledge we currently have, than message board posters using their emotions to make the calls. > [@](#): > > As for them lying, no, hiding things yes. How did I come up with this nice little bit of information? Easy during the court battle multiple doctors said “PVS” no hope of recovery blah blah blah. Now the doctors are saying well all that stuff posted above about her improving along with the tidbit about childrens brains being more adept at improving in these conditions. That’s hardly new information. PVS is not a disease, it’s a state. States can and do change. What happens is that a person who is in a VS for over a month gets labelled with the term PVS. There are some experts who claim that you can’t come out of a PVS, and that any cases to the contrary were not actually PVS cases. There are other experts who think that it’s possible, especially for children, to sometimes come out of PVS, albeit quite rarely. What they all seem to agree on is that after several months of being in a PVS, even if one were to emerge and become “aware”, the quality of life one would have would be questionable at best. Once again, if I’m able to come out of it and reach a state that one could charitably call semi-awareness, while being completely unable to fend for myself in any way, shape, or form, feel free to stop feeding me. > [@](#): > > If you as a member of a jury only felt 90% certain that the defendent was guilty and a guilty verdict meant the death penalty would you say guilty? I wouldn’t. I’d say not guilty, but this has absolutely squat to do with the situation we’re discussing. If as a member of the jury, I felt that the defendent was 100% guilty of 90% of the crime (let’s say he beat the guy to within an inch of his life, and it’s unclear whether the subsequent death was a result of the beating or a coincidentally timed heart attack), I’d be a lot more likely to give a verdict of guilty. That seems a much more appropriate analogy, unless you think that this poor little girl is in one of two states, PVS, or completely healthy. The reality from what little information we are being given is that she’s either PVS, or damned close to it, and that she will never be much more than a shell of what she once was. If she fully recovers and goes on to lead a healthy and productive life, **then** I’ll be happy to revisit my stance. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/34 "2006-01-20T02:10:01Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > This girl is fighting for life it would seem, and you don’t want to help her? By the way, I can’t let this one slide, as it’s bullshit of the “Think of the children” variety. You don’t have the slightest idea if this girl is fighting for her life or not. None. It’s simply an emotional appeal and to trot it out in a post subsequent to one in which you chastised another poster for not debating is pretty poor form. A truly suicidal person is going to have a hard time holding his breath to kill himself. That doesn’t mean he’s fighting for his life. Breathing isn’t something we seem to have a lot of choice about. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/35 "2006-01-20T02:13:52Z")
I know I’m probably being unnecessarily provocative, but in this case: > [@](#): > > So, you have 10,000 children and $10 billion to spend on them. A small proportion of those 10,000 children are healthy and well, and do not need any share of the $10 billion. Among the remainder, majority of them are relatively healthy, but “left behind”. They definitely deserve a share of the $10 billion. etc etc etc Yes, it’s pretty clear. You pull the nation’s troops out of any pointless wars, eliminate corporate welfare and tax breaks for the super rich, take the money, and spend THAT on the kids!! Then there will be enough even for the few who need lots of medical attention! Duh… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/36 "2006-01-20T02:59:38Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > My outrage is on the doctors who testified that she would never improve only to hear now that childrens brains are better able to improve under these circumstances. They where using her life as a means to get the miserable bastard that put her in this state. Not fair to her, that our criminal justice system isn’t fair and doesn’t treat attempted murder as murder no matter of the outcome of the act. You act like the doctors purposely mistated things. Medicine is NOT an exact science and at the time, the prognosis looked as if things would not improve. Just because she’s breathing on her own does NOT necessarily mean improvement, either. Breathing isn’t voluntary. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/37 "2006-01-20T03:18:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You act like the doctors purposely mistated things. Medicine is NOT an exact science and at the time, the prognosis looked as if things would not improve. > > Just because she’s breathing on her own does NOT necessarily mean improvement, either. Breathing isn’t voluntary. And another person who argues without reading. She is doing more then breathing. If she had a 1% chance at recovery there is no reason to kill her. They would be guilty of murder, end of story. The doctors purposely do mistate things all the time, whether by not giving full information or because the HMO tells them not to do different treatments. IMHO this is a case of them wanting to charge the abuser with murder and save the state money. If this little girl had a living will, fine let her go as she chose to go. Being that she didn’t and you nor I know what she wants its best to err on the side of caution and let her live. > [@](#): > > Doctors in Springfield, Mass., have elicited responses from Haleigh and plan more tests [http://www.thebostonchannel.com/new...634/detail.html](http://www.thebostonchannel.com/new...634/detail.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/38 "2006-01-20T03:50:28Z")
Is there anything to suggest that this person can recover from a vegetative state? If not, then a little breathing is meaningless. If the brain is gone, the person is gone, an the doctors are right. She’s not recovering. I definitely don’t want the state tellling me I have to stay alive against my will and I don’t want the state making that decision for my wife or children. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/39 "2006-01-20T03:54:30Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > And another person who argues without reading. She is doing more then breathing.[http://www.thebostonchannel.com/new...634/detail.html](http://www.thebostonchannel.com/new...634/detail.html) Your link isn’t working. What “responses” are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/40 "2006-01-20T04:02:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Is there anything to suggest that this person can recover from a vegetative state? If not, then a little breathing is meaningless. If the brain is gone, the person is gone, an the doctors are right. She’s not recovering. I definitely don’t want the state tellling me I have to stay alive against my will and I don’t want the state making that decision for my wife or children. > [@](#): > > She said Haleigh had responded to some testing on Wednesday but would not specify what the tests or responses were. [http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1522189](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1522189) > [@](#): > > But he said recovery is more likely with children than adults. > > “There’s more plasticity to their brain. There’s potentially other areas of the brain that can take over,” he said. > **[KHON2](https://www.khon2.com/?storyID=10638§ionID=1156)** > > Working for Hawaii: Hawaii News, Sports, Weather, Live Video > [@](#): > > “There is some responsiveness and we don’t know if it is reflex or if it is more than that, so that’s why she’s going through a battery of tests,” she added. [link](http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-01-19T212013Z_01_N19355229_RTRUKOC_0_US-RIGHTS-MASSACHUSETTS.xml&archived=False) It was just two days ago the courts agreed with the state to let her die, so now she starts breathing and some “response” tells me she recovered a little bit at least. Now the state is willing to wait before killing her. Why the rush to kill her in the first place? To convict the abuser? To save money? If the abuser didn’t fight to keep her alive this little girl wouldn’t of had the chance to even make it this far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=3)