# Are people too willing to pull life support? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648 "2006-01-19T13:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/61 "2006-01-20T10:59:44Z")
> [@Obsidian](#): > > Sorry for the dlight hijack, but **Kalhoun** can I ask you something? Is your Dad married? The reason I ask this is my mother is terrified of death. She is of the “I want to live forever on machines” type. My father is admant that he not ever be kept on machines. Mom has expressed that she doesn’t think she could bring herself to pull the plug, but understands this is what he wants. He took me aside when I was 18 and asked me to promise I would see the plug pulled, and I did so. I had been wondering if we could have papers drawn up basically bypassing her as his next of kin in this situation. > > (I have secured a mutual promise from him to pull my plug if needs be, but it should be fine for him and not my mom to sign my paper in that case) My mom died seven years ago. We didn’t have a plug situation with her. She had cancer and went very quickly. You can go to a lawyer. They can draw up the papers (as I recall the whole will and everything was only around $300). Explain to them what you want to accomplish. They may ask your mother to relinquish rights over to you…I don’t know how that works, but I’d mention it. We’re all in agreement as far as honoring my dad’s wishes. However, if one of us kids didn’t want to go through with it, the decision would ultimately fall on me. I’m glad that in theory, we’re all in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/62 "2006-01-20T11:36:30Z")
**Obsidian** your looking for is a [“durable power of attorney for health care”](http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&q=durable+power+of+attorney+for+health+care), here’s one for [California](http://www.ilrg.com/forms/states/ca-powerofattorneyhealth.html) . You can choose to appoint anyone to be your health care agent. The two hospitals my mom recently visited had very nice printed forms (with wallet cards) in the most every room. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/63 "2006-01-20T12:23:34Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > **Obsidian** your looking for is a [“durable power of attorney for health care”](http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&q=durable+power+of+attorney+for+health+care), here’s one for [California](http://www.ilrg.com/forms/states/ca-powerofattorneyhealth.html) . > You can choose to appoint anyone to be your health care agent. > The two hospitals my mom recently visited had very nice printed forms (with wallet cards) in the most every room. That’s it! I couldn’t remember the name of it, but that’s the document you need. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/64 "2006-01-20T13:36:35Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You started a thread on a topic you know nothing about. The doctors said she’s a vegetable with no chance of recovering anything even resembling her old life. She “improved”? She’s breathing on her own. Whoop-de-doo. There’s nothing there that changes the fact that she is a vegetable. We can only hope she’s not aware of the bullshit they’re putting her through. Hey! Maybe she’ll get well enough to grunt! Won’t that be a joyous day? And here you are another person thinking they are the know it all, my beliefs out trump your beliefs. But irregardless, she is doing things the doctors said she would \*\*not do \*\* that is an improvement. > [@](#): > > DSS officials first reported changes in Haleigh‘s condition on Wednesday — a day after the Supreme Judicial Court ruled on the case — but would not specify what she responded to or what the responses meant. > > “They haven‘t said much on what we could expect,” said Allison Avrett, Haleigh‘s biological mother. “This could be as good as it gets. **But they never expected this**.” Bolding mine [http://www.localnewsleader.com/brocktown/stories/news-00127802.html](http://www.localnewsleader.com/brocktown/stories/news-00127802.html) ``` I have a mentally challenged cousin that only grunts, I suppose we could put him down too. And I will state this one more time for those with trouble reading, she is doing more then breathing, she is responding to something. That is something the doctors said she would not do. No hope of improvement 4 days ago to, umm yeah she is responding to something, and breathing on her own. Yeah that is two improvements. ``` ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/65 "2006-01-20T14:15:26Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > ``` > I have a mentally challenged cousin that only grunts, I suppose we could put him down too. > > ``` There is a _massive_ difference between a person with PVS and a mentally challenged person. You haven’t provided much more of a description of your cousin, but based on my experiences with the mentally challenged he’s exhibiting more than basic brain stem functions. With PVS, there is no higher brain function…grunts, twitches, etc. mean nothing; the patient is just not aware of the surrounding environment. **DMC** ’s PDF file explained this nicely. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/66 "2006-01-20T14:22:24Z")
> [@Jeep's Phoenix](#): > > There is a _massive_ difference between a person with PVS and a mentally challenged person. You haven’t provided much more of a description of your cousin, but based on my experiences with the mentally challenged he’s exhibiting more than basic brain stem functions. With PVS, there is no higher brain function…grunts, twitches, etc. mean nothing; the patient is just not aware of the surrounding environment. **DMC** ’s PDF file explained this nicely. So nice you’re willing to bet your life on this being irreversible, no wait it is much easier when it is someone elses life. If this young child comes out of this supposed PVS, I suppose that will settle this debate. Yeah in a sane world but in the SDMB it would just be grounds for someone saying something else to “back up” there all knowing beliefs. > [@](#): > > Nonetheless, some dispute still remains over the reliability of PVS diagnosis, particularly when a limited number of physicians (or physicians without experience in the area of PVS) make the diagnosis. One study of 40 patients in the United Kingdom considered that 43% of those patients classed as in a PVS were misdiagnosed and another 33% able to recover whilst the study was underway > **[Persistent vegetative state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state)** > > A persistent vegetative state (PVS) or post-coma unresponsiveness (PCU) is a disorder of consciousness in which patients with severe brain damage are in a state of partial arousal rather than true awareness. After four weeks in a vegetative state (VS), the patient is classified as in a persistent vegetative state. This diagnosis is classified as a permanent vegetative state some months (three in the US and six in the UK) after a non-traumatic brain injury or one year after a traumatic injury. Th... ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/67 "2006-01-20T14:24:44Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > And here you are another person thinking they are the know it all, my beliefs out trump your beliefs. But irregardless, she is doing things the doctors said she would \*\*not do \*\* that is an improvement. > Bolding mine > > [http://www.localnewsleader.com/brocktown/stories/news-00127802.html](http://www.localnewsleader.com/brocktown/stories/news-00127802.html) > > ``` > I have a mentally challenged cousin that only grunts, I suppose we could put him down too. And I will state this one more time for those with trouble reading, she is doing more then breathing, she is responding to something. That is something the doctors said she would not do. No hope of improvement 4 days ago to, umm yeah she is responding to something, and breathing on her own. Yeah that is two improvements. > > ``` If your cousin grunts in response to things, if he does more than lay there in bed, if he has self-awareness and can consciously respond to stimuli (which the patient in the article doesn’t), it is ridiculous to bring him into the conversation. He’s retarded, right? Not brain-dead. There’s a huge difference. The “responding” she’s doing is not conscious, so it doesn’t count. And there’s no such word as “irregardless.” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/68 "2006-01-20T14:30:31Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > So nice you’re willing to bet your life on this being irreversible, no wait it is much easier when it is someone elses life. If this young child comes out of this supposed PVS, I suppose that will settle this debate. Yeah in a sane world but in the SDMB it would just be grounds for someone saying something else to “back up” there all knowing beliefs. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent\_vegetative\_state](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state) Every sperm is sacred, right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/69 "2006-01-20T14:31:24Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > And here you are another person thinking they are the know it all, my beliefs out trump your beliefs. But irregardless, she is doing things the doctors said she would \*\*not do \*\* that is an improvement. Beliefs don’t play into it. It’s simple anantomy. The brain stem is destroyed. Game over. Breathing is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > I have a mentally challenged cousin that only grunts, I suppose we could put him down too. Mentally challenged and PVS are two completely different things. They’re not comporable. > [@](#): > > And I will state this one more time for those with trouble reading, she is doing more then breathing, she is responding to something. That is something the doctors said she would not do. No hope of improvement 4 days ago to, umm yeah she is responding to something, and breathing on her own. Yeah that is two improvements. I will state again that “responding to stimuli” doesn’t mean a thing. Nothing described in these articles contradicts the diagnosis of PVS. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/70 "2006-01-20T14:53:46Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Every sperm is sacred, right? Nope, also believe in a womans right to choose, but I do not see what this has to do with this debate. Unless you where trying to “label” me as a religious conservative ya know to further your belief that I cannot be right. **Diogenes the Cynic** ever heard of misdiagnosis in these cases? I can show you cites with them if you would like. Actually the wiki link has a case or two as well as noting how often it is misdiagnosed. But thats okay, you would rather cling to straws to kill someone, while I would rather cling to them to save someone. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/71 "2006-01-20T15:01:30Z")
There is nothing to indicate that THIS diagnosis is wrong and sometimes a diagnosis of PVS is beyond dispute. The Schiavo case, for instance. Cerebral cortexes do not grow back any more than amputated arms or legs can grow back. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/72 "2006-01-20T15:06:58Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Nope, also believe in a womans right to choose, but I do not see what this has to do with this debate. Unless you where trying to “label” me as a religious conservative ya know to further your belief that I cannot be right. > > **Diogenes the Cynic** ever heard of misdiagnosis in these cases? I can show you cites with them if you would like. Actually the wiki link has a case or two as well as noting how often it is misdiagnosed. But thats okay, you would rather cling to straws to kill someone, while I would rather cling to them to save someone. No, I’m not trying to label you as anything. I just happen to think you have a recklessly vague definition of what “life” is and I’m overjoyed by the fact that you will not be in a position to make that decision for me should my luck run the same way this poor kid’s did. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/73 "2006-01-20T15:07:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is nothing to indicate that THIS diagnosis is wrong and sometimes a diagnosis of PVS is beyond dispute. The Schiavo case, for instance. Cerebral cortexes do not grow back any more than amputated arms or legs can grow back. Sure there is when they said there would be **no improvement** and there was improvement that was wrong! I get it they can only be wrong about one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/74 "2006-01-20T15:14:53Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Sure there is when they said there would be **no improvement** and there was improvement that was wrong! I get it they can only be wrong about one thing. The degree of “improvement” she would need to function as a human being rather than a vegetable will never be met. It’s a needle in a haystack. The fact that she’s breathing on her own will never bring back the piece of her brain that was sheared. Your definition of “improvement” brings nothing to the debate. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/75 "2006-01-20T16:13:58Z")
**"They haven‘t said much on what we could expect," said Allison Avrett, Haleigh‘s biological mother. "This could be as good as it gets.** But they never expected this." Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/76 "2006-01-20T16:22:46Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Sure there is when they said there would be **no improvement** and there was improvement that was wrong! I get it they can only be wrong about one thing. They didn’t say there could be “no improvement,” they said there could be no recovery from the PVS. Breathing is not recovering and is not an indicator that she _can_ recover. There is no change in the PVS diagnosis and that’s the diagnosis that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/77 "2006-01-20T16:27:06Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent\_vegetative\_state](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state) Just wanted to point out that your own link says PVS patients will respond to pain stimuli, which may be exactly what this girl is doing - so that wouldn’t mean she’s not in one. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/78 "2006-01-20T17:52:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Just wanted to point out that your own link says PVS patients will respond to pain stimuli, which may be exactly what this girl is doing - so that wouldn’t mean she’s not in one. But my own links said she was supposed to have **no improvement** and she did have some improvement why is that so hard to see? Maybe its not a “miracle” and she may never recover any more then that. But the **facts** are that she had improvement after them saying there would be **none**. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/79 "2006-01-20T18:00:15Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > But my own links said she was supposed to have **no improvement** and she did have some improvement why is that so hard to see? Maybe its not a “miracle” and she may never recover any more then that. But the **facts** are that she had improvement after them saying there would be **none**. Because non-cognizant response to stimuli isn’t improvement, it’s simply a response. When Galvani’s frog’s leg twitched, it didn’t mean the frog was improving. When the doctors say that there are signs of awareness, **then** there is improvement. I’m not expecting that to happen, but sure, it would be wonderful if it did. On a side note, with all that the little girl has been through in her lifetime, if I were in her shoes I would indeed be fighting for my life, simply so that I could be cognizant long enough to say “Stop dicking around, and pull that shit out of me, so that I may die in peace, dammit.” If that bothers you, consider that it’s no more of a stretch than what you are proposing. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/80 "2006-01-20T18:05:11Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Because non-cognizant response to stimuli isn’t improvement, it’s simply a response. When Galvani’s frog’s leg twitched, it didn’t mean the frog was improving. > > When the doctors say that there are signs of awareness, **then** there is improvement. I’m not expecting that to happen, but sure, it would be wonderful if it did. > > On a side note, with all that the little girl has been through in her lifetime, if I were in her shoes I would indeed be fighting for my life, simply so that I could be cognizant long enough to say “Stop dicking around, and pull that shit out of me, so that I may die in peace, dammit.” If that bothers you, consider that it’s no more of a stretch than what you are proposing. I agree. I think whoever gave the interview chose their words poorly. There is no way this is an improvement. But if further investigation makes the family happy, I suppose there’s no way around it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=5)