# Are people too willing to pull life support? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648 "2006-01-19T13:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/101 "2006-01-21T16:55:14Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > The problem exactly? If this little girls step father who put her in this condition would not of fought to keep her alive, none of this would of ever came to light. She would of been dead months ago. If he’s had his way, she’d have been dead even sooner than that. > [@](#): > > My biggest problem is a judge who seals medical records, a state not allowing other doctors to check her for the supposed PVS prior to these improvements, a people so willing to believe in what someone tells them they cannot look past there white coats to save a girls life. Then debate these issues. Hell, I’d even agree that 3 weeks wasn’t long enough, as that’s even shorter than is typically required to make a PVS diagnosis. If you actually want a debate, which is what the purpose of an OP in GD is usually for, then do so. There are plenty of places on this board for ranting. To sum up: The girl is still alive. That she has any chance of even a miniscule recovery is still not known. The state is not currently attempting to rush the process of pulling her tubes. There is no evidence that any doctor is attempting to murder her. At this time, not a single medical expert has provided evidence that she is anything other than in a PVS. **If** that changes, I’ll be very happy. There is every indication that DSS is going to cover their asses so thoroughly at this point (even if it’s at least partially politically motivated) that the poor little kid is almost definitely going to be kept alive a lot longer than medically prudent, even if she remains in a PVS. I don’t see a particular problem with the current handling of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/102 "2006-01-21T16:55:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Please note [this posted rule](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4749265&postcount=3) regarding **Great Debates**. > > Then recognize that is also not appropriate to this discussion. I realize that this is an emotional issue, for you, but when you start letting your emotions dictate your posts, you are better off doing it in the **BBQ Pit**. > > If you would prefer to let it out, I would be happy to move this thread for you, but while it remains in **GD** , please stick to actual debating. > > [/Moderating] I apologize for the lack of restraint I showed. This is still better left in GD. IMHO. But if you feel it must be moved then you can do so, it will be understandable. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/103 "2006-01-21T17:06:32Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > If he’s had his way, she’d have been dead even sooner than that. > > Then debate these issues. Hell, I’d even agree that 3 weeks wasn’t long enough, as that’s even shorter than is typically required to make a PVS diagnosis. If you actually want a debate, which is what the purpose of an OP in GD is usually for, then do so. There are plenty of places on this board for ranting. > > To sum up: > > The girl is still alive. > > That she has any chance of even a miniscule recovery is still not known. > > The state is not currently attempting to rush the process of pulling her tubes. > > There is no evidence that any doctor is attempting to murder her. > > At this time, not a single medical expert has provided evidence that she is anything other than in a PVS. **If** that changes, I’ll be very happy. > > There is every indication that DSS is going to cover their asses so thoroughly at this point (even if it’s at least partially politically motivated) that the poor little kid is almost definitely going to be kept alive a lot longer than medically prudent, even if she remains in a PVS. > > I don’t see a particular problem with the current handling of the situation. I figured that my OP was clear on that being a debate point? Are we too willing to pull life support. You have no problems with how the state was handling it? They wanted to pull life support 3 weeks after the beating. They may be handling it better now, but the point is it would of been too late. If she was in PVS and actual experts other then state appointed ones say so, then my argument would be more moot. But thats not the case, only ONE doctor pushed for her removal from life support. > [@](#): > > Adding to the difficulty in assessing Haleigh’s case is the fact that two doctors at Baystate Medical Center differed on how to withdraw life support, according to the Supreme Judicial Court ruling. Haleigh’s treating physician recommended that the ventilator and feeding tube be withdrawn. But the head of the pediatric intensive care unit recommended that only her ventilator be removed, though he added that ''the removal of life support in this case would not be contrary to prevailing medical ethics. [Link](http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/01/21/dss_to_seek_outside_expertise_in_haleigh_case/) If you where in a coma, PVS, wouldn’t you rather have a couple of expert opinions before they rush to pull life support? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/104 "2006-01-21T17:14:38Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Tell me, Abbie…exactly what degree of recovery do you envision should they leave this kid on life support? > > What length of time have you determined would be “long enough” for YOU to believe that she has reached her peak and is not going to come out of PVS and back amongst the living? > > Tell me…in your opinion, is there a quality of life that is so low as to be considered “dead” for all intents and purposes? How do you come to that conclusion? What criteria would make it OK to pull the plug? Longer then the 3 weeks it took them to say she was in a PVS lets kill her. Now if she is responding as some say she is, she is not PVS, is she? > [@](#): > > Patients in a persistent vegetative state are usually considered to be unconscious and unaware. They are unresponsive to external stimuli, except, possibly, pain stimuli > **[Persistent vegetative state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state)** > > A persistent vegetative state (PVS) or post-coma unresponsiveness (PCU) is a disorder of consciousness in which patients with severe brain damage are in a state of partial arousal rather than true awareness. After four weeks in a vegetative state (VS), the patient is classified as in a persistent vegetative state. This diagnosis is classified as a permanent vegetative state some months (three in the US and six in the UK) after a non-traumatic brain injury or one year after a traumatic injury. Th... Sounds like it just may be a misdiagonis eh. And to think these doctors where better then the experts who say 3 weeks is not even close to long enough to decide to pull life support. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/105 "2006-01-21T17:21:32Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > If you where in a coma, PVS, wouldn’t you rather have a couple of expert opinions before they rush to pull life support? But a coma and PVS are two different things. This girl is not just in a coma; there are questions about whether she will ever regain higher brain functions as simple as swallowing. [A definition of the term “coma.”](http://www.neurologychannel.com/coma/) And while the site notes that “a [persistant] vegetative state may last for years,” it also notes that “the cognitive part of their brain no longer functions.” The person is simply no longer there; the body may be moving and blinking, but there’s no thought behind the actions. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/106 "2006-01-21T17:22:18Z")
Three weeks might be too soon for many types of brain injuries, but the fact that a portion of her brain was sheared tells me that there is little chance she’ll ever be more than a group of cells waiting to be released to the soil. My husband’s brother killed himself. But he didn’t die immediately. He was on life support and was missing a big chunk of his brain. It doesn’t take a genius to see that even though a person is still alive, the chance of meaningful improvement simply doesn’t exist. They pulled the plug the next day. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/107 "2006-01-21T17:25:59Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > I figured that my OP was clear on that being a debate point? Nope, your OP stated: > [@](#): > > I thought after the Florida incident, that pulling life support was only used when there was no hope of recovery. Is this an isolated incident or are we as a nation so believing in what doctors say that we do not believe in the human bodies ability to fight for its life? There is still no medical evidence being provided that there is any hope of recovery. There might very well be such evidence, but we haven’t seen it yet. If it is forthcoming, I’ll be cheering for the girl right beside you. Until then, I see no reason to try and make any determination. As for believing in doctors, who should we believe if not them? I’m not sure what “the human bodies ability to fight for its life” has to do with anything in this debate, so you’ll need to clarify that. > [@](#): > > Are we too willing to pull life support. There very well could be cases where life support was pulled before it was medically prudent to do so. Reviewing those and punatively dealing with them where warranted is fine by me. I’m certainly a fan of nailing down the process. > [@](#): > > You have no problems with how the state was handling it? I’m not happy with how they **were** handling it, but at the time you posted your OP, it was being handled fine in my estimation. > [@](#): > > They wanted to pull life support 3 weeks after the beating. Three weeks is not enough time to make a PVS diagnosis by most counts, so I’d be interested in their reasoning here. > [@](#): > > They may be handling it better now, but the point is it would of been too late. Until we know if she is actually recovering, we don’t know that anything would have been “too late”. > [@](#): > > If she was in PVS and actual experts other then state appointed ones say so, then my argument would be more moot. But thats not the case, only ONE doctor pushed for her removal from life support. Then debate that we need more formalized procedures to make a PVS determination. I’d be more than happy to support that. > [@](#): > > If you where in a coma, PVS, wouldn’t you rather have a couple of expert opinions before they rush to pull life support? If I was in a coma, I wouldn’t want anyone pulling the plug. If I was in a PVS, sure, I’d be happy to have at least several doctors agree with the diagnosis. I think the problem is that you brought a particular case into the debate. In the case in question, there is still no evidence that the girl is not in a PVS, nor any evidence that she has even the slightest chance of recovery. A large majority of us have been debating it from that standpoint. A debate about how best to make the call when to pull the plug would be quite interesting. Emotional pleas about some poor kid who has been fucked over for her whole life, who still hasn’t been shown to be recovering, and saying that the doctors tried to murder her, all regarding a case in which we don’t know anything about her current state, doesn’t make for a good debate. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/108 "2006-01-21T17:31:42Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Three weeks might be too soon for many types of brain injuries, but the fact that a portion of her brain was sheared tells me that there is little chance she’ll ever be more than a group of cells waiting to be released to the soil. > > My husband’s brother killed himself. But he didn’t die immediately. He was on life support and was missing a big chunk of his brain. It doesn’t take a genius to see that even though a person is still alive, the chance of meaningful improvement simply doesn’t exist. > > They pulled the plug the next day. I’m sorry to hear that, but this case is different as many experts our saying. This is a child who just by being a child has a better chance at recovery. Is it not fathomable to you that maybe she wasn’t PVS, I mean if she was I don’t think the same people who where pushing for life support removal are now saying, > [@](#): > > ‘’'There has been a change in her condition," said a DSS spokeswoman, Denise Monteiro. ''The vegetative state may not be a total vegetative state." > > Monteiro said Haleigh is breathing on her own, without the ventilator she has depended on for four months. Monteiro also said that doctors at Baystate Medical Center in Springfield elicited responses from Haleigh during tests performed yesterday. > **[Girl in vegetative state reported to improve](http://archive.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/01/19/girl_in_vegetative_state_reported_to_improve/)** > > A day after the state's highest court ruled that the Department of Social Services could withdraw life support from a brain-damaged girl, the agency said yesterday that Haleigh Poutre might be emerging from her vegetative state. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/109 "2006-01-21T17:54:21Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Longer then the 3 weeks it took them to say she was in a PVS lets kill her. **Abbie Normal** , this is where you keep losing me. The only person who wants or wanted to “kill” this girl is her bastard step-father, and \*\*he’s \*\* the one the blame should be placed on if she dies. Her doctors don’t \*want \* her dead. They simply don’t see the benefit of keeping her alive if there’s no hope of recovery. Please try to grasp the difference, and stop attributing evil motives to people when there’s no evidence of them. Your tone is, frankly, hysterical, and your mistrust of the medical establishment seems to border on tin-hat conspiracy theories. You keep linking to essentially the same article, which emphatically does \*\*not \*\* say that she has experienced any significant improvement. All it says is that she is breathing on her own, and has responded to stimuli. One thing I did notice: > [@Boston Globe](#): > > Monteiro said Haleigh is breathing on her own, _without the ventilator she has depended on for **four months** _. Where are you getting this three weeks thing? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/110 "2006-01-21T18:06:17Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > **Abbie Normal** , this is where you keep losing me. The only person who wants or wanted to “kill” this girl is her bastard step-father, and \*\*he’s \*\* the one the blame should be placed on if she dies. Her doctors don’t \*want \* her dead. They simply don’t see the benefit of keeping her alive if there’s no hope of recovery. Please try to grasp the difference, and stop attributing evil motives to people when there’s no evidence of them. > > Your tone is, frankly, hysterical, and your mistrust of the medical establishment seems to border on tin-hat conspiracy theories. > > You keep linking to essentially the same article, which emphatically does \*\*not \*\* say that she has experienced any significant improvement. All it says is that she is breathing on her own, and has responded to stimuli. One thing I did notice: > > Where are you getting this three weeks thing? > [@](#): > > Spence said that, ''acting on the best medical advice at the time," he personally approved the DSS’s decision last fall to seek a juvenile court’s permission to remove Haleigh’s breathing and feeding tubes. Court records show that the DSS filed its motion sometime before Sept. 30, within three weeks of when the child was hospitalized. > [@](#): > > The DSS request to remove life support was approved by Collins on Oct. 5. > **[DSS to seek outside expertise in Haleigh case](http://archive.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/01/21/dss_to_seek_outside_expertise_in_haleigh_case/)** > > State Department of Social Services Commissioner Harry Spence said yesterday that he plans to solicit outside expertise to help his agency sort out the complex medical and ethical issues around the fate of Haleigh Poutre. Actually almost all of the links come from [boston.com](http://boston.com) there are a variety of different articles involved. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/111 "2006-01-21T18:11:12Z")
From your cite: > [@](#): > > Many neurologists say it is rare for a patient with severe brain-stem injuries to fully recover from a persistent vegetative state that lasts for more than a month. **Sometimes, patients can partially recover, such as showing increasing responsiveness to touch by frowning or moving their hand,** said Dr. Steve Williams, chief of rehabilitation medicine at Boston Medical Center. > > **But rarely do these patients fully recover so they can communicate, feed themselves, and live ordinary lives** , he said. Okay…What if she recovers to the point that she can frown and move her hand, but cannot communicate with people or feed herself? Do you feel the doctors have the responsibility to leave her on life support? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/112 "2006-01-21T18:17:30Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > From your cite: > > Okay…What if she recovers to the point that she can frown and move her hand, but cannot communicate with people or feed herself? Do you feel the doctors have the responsibility to leave her on life support? I don’t know, now you are entering a gray zone. My cousin who as I mentioned is severely mentally challenged can do none of those things, well grunts but not for any real reasons. And yet I am pretty sure my aunt wouldn’t want to put him down. But if she can do any of those things, she is not PVS now is she? Didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/113 "2006-01-21T18:23:02Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > I don’t know, now you are entering a gray zone. My cousin who as I mentioned is severely mentally challenged can do none of those things, well grunts but not for any real reasons. And yet I am pretty sure my aunt wouldn’t want to put him down. But if she can do any of those things, she is not PVS now is she? Didn’t think so. Yes, I think she would be in a persistent vegetative state if she can only raise her hand and frown. There are degrees of PVS, as you have laid out in this particular case. She couldn’t breathe before but now she can. She’s still PVS. It is a higher degree, but vegetative nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/114 "2006-01-21T18:23:35Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > I don’t know, now you are entering a gray zone. My cousin who as I mentioned is severely mentally challenged can do none of those things, well grunts but not for any real reasons. And yet I am pretty sure my aunt wouldn’t want to put him down. But if she can do any of those things, she is not PVS now is she? Didn’t think so. Actually, grunting, frowning, and moving her hand \*doesn’t \* rule out PVS. Doing these things \*knowingly \* and \*voluntarily \* would rule out PVS. But grunting, frowning, and moving are all things that certainly can happen reflexively. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/115 "2006-01-21T18:34:46Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Yes, I think she would be in a persistent vegetative state if she can only raise her hand and frown. There are degrees of PVS, as you have laid out in this particular case. She couldn’t breathe before but now she can. She’s still PVS. It is a higher degree, but vegetative nonetheless. It amazes me that some people on here are better then the best doctors in the world at explaining PVS, wow and here I thought PVS was still uncertain and misdiagnosed with some frequency. [http://www.cwu.edu/~chem/courses/Chem564/finalpapers/PVSfinal.html](http://www.cwu.edu/~chem/courses/Chem564/finalpapers/PVSfinal.html) > **[Misdiagnosis of the vegetative state: retrospective study in a rehabilitation...](https://www.bmj.com/content/313/7048/13.full)** > > Objective : To identify the number of patients who were misdiagnosed as being in the vegetative state and their characteristics. > > Design : Retrospective study of the clinical records of the medical, occupational therapy, and clinical psychology... ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/116 "2006-01-21T18:50:27Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Oh beautiful to get your point across (that is WRONG) you use the famous big fonts. Well, this thread pisses me off, particularly references to the parents, so I felt like yelling. Originally it was going to be “She has no parents”, but I thought it sounded way too cold, guess I was wrong. (BTW, Point me to what’s wrong in that post.) > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Point #1, once adopted the “biological parents” views are as worthless as yours, whether they use big fonts or not. She is a ward of the state. That is who is pushing (was) for removal. And as worthless as yours, whether you use little fonts or not. Despite their their legal status, they still are Haleigh’s parents. Somehow, I don’t think you’d be quite so dismissive of their views if they agreed with yours. Since their desires have been an issue in this thread, I thought it necessary to make it clear what those desires were. Feel free to update that information if/when it changes. > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > I get bile in my throat just thinking the person who saved her life this time, was the same person that put her in this condition. Got any cites for the last half of that? Here’s mine, [ > [@](#): > > When questioned about the girl’s injuries, Jason Strickland said ''he had no knowledge of them or how they occurred," the report continued. > … > Court documents show that police located a witness who said Holli Strickland had beaten Haleigh with various objects, including a baseball bat, and had thrown the girl down the stairs. The police report said the witness, who is unnamed in court documents, also described Jason Strickland striking the girl with an open hand or a ''plastic wand." The beatings allegedly took place in the Strickland home, and court officials said that at least one witness is a baby sitter who was at the house. ]([http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/11/06/accused\_stepfather\_fights\_to\_keep\_girl\_alive/?page=3](http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/11/06/accused_stepfather_fights_to_keep_girl_alive/?page=3))[ > [@](#): > > A baby sitter and friend of the Stricklands, Alicia Weiss…,23, who also baby-sat for Ms. Strickland’s 9-year-old daughter from her first marriage and her 2-year-old son with Mr. Strickland, testified that last summer she saw Ms. Strickland kick Haleigh down the cellar stairs three times in a row. > > “Holli had told me that Haleigh’s behavior was so bad that this was the means of discipline,” said Ms. Weiss, who did not report such incidents at the time. ]([http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/other/articles/2005/12/06/custody\_and\_abuse\_cases\_swirl\_around\_a\_troubled\_girl\_on\_life\_support/?page=2](http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/other/articles/2005/12/06/custody_and_abuse_cases_swirl_around_a_troubled_girl_on_life_support/?page=2))[ > [@](#): > > Mr. Strickland’s criminal case further complicates things. He is charged with assault and battery, accused of striking Haleigh once with an open hand and once with a plastic toy, and of not stopping Ms. Strickland when she committed more serious assaults, like hitting Haleigh with a baseball bat and kicking her existing bruises. ]([http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/other/articles/2005/12/06/custody\_and\_abuse\_cases\_swirl\_around\_a\_troubled\_girl\_on\_life\_support/?page=1](http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/other/articles/2005/12/06/custody_and_abuse_cases_swirl_around_a_troubled_girl_on_life_support/?page=1)) yeah it’s his fault, striking Haleigh once with an open hand and once with a plastic toy, that’s what partly sheared her brain stem, not Ms. Strickland repeatedly throwing her down flights of stairs and hitting Haleigh with a baseball bat. Most likely, Holli Strickland is responsible for what happened to Haleigh, but since she’s dead she can’t be prosecuted. But hey, we can just say it’s all Mr. Strickland’s fault! You get bile in your throat “just thinking the person who saved her life”, I’m choking on it having to defend this prick. Re your post to **Diogenes the Cynic** > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Wow this is not the pit so I will not insult you or your intelligence which I thought was way greater then mine. This was “Allison Avrett, Haleigh’s biological mother”… > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > …once adopted the “biological parents” views are as worthless as yours… Soo, sometimes what she says counts, sometimes it’s worthless? > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > My highground is the right place to be, go ahead and take the gutter, it doesn’t effect me it just makes me thank the Lord everyday that people with common sense and decency are in charge most of the time. I too wish we were in the pit but I’m trying to keep my thread starting virginity. **Kalhoun** just to clarify, all the news stories I’ve read say it was her brain stem that was partially sheared. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/117 "2006-01-21T18:54:13Z")
A few things: –You really can’t make the diagnosis of a PVS less than about three months after the initial event. Recovery does happen, and it almost always happens in this period of time (probably a little longer in children). Up to that point, you can say that the patient is _likely_ to be in a PVS, but not for sure. So anyone who wanted to pull the plug three weeks out would have been jumping the gun (but see below). However, it also means that any further improvement at this point would be pretty much unprecedented. Of course, terminology is not always thrown around with great precision in medical settings, especially when multiple doctors are involved, and even moreso once it gets filtered through the media. Everyone involved has probably used the term “PVS” only because the Schiavo case brought the term into the national consciousness. It’s hard to say exactly what the patient’s condition is, and what doctors have thought about it, or said about it. –The fact that the state went to court to secure the right to remove life support doesn’t mean they wanted to do it right then. If I were in the state’s position, knowing full well that a decision was going to have to be made and there would be some question about who had the right to make it, I would start getting that sorted out as soon as possible. This is especially true when they know it could take months for the court to make its determinations. – **Abbie** says that the state refused to let other doctors review the case. After the Schiavo case, I can understand why. That case showed us that there is no shortage of doctors out there who will say absolutely anything because 1.) it supports their non-medical beliefs, 2.) it is politically expedient to do so, or 3.) a lawyer pays them to say it. Would you want the case reviewed by that guy who was all over Fox News claiming that he had been nominated for a Nobel Prize? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/118 "2006-01-21T19:02:45Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > This case highlights that the state and doctors do not know what is right everytime. My highground is the right place to be Your high ground may not exist. What does exist is your desire to holler about doctors and the state of Massachusetts trying to murder this girl, as evidenced by the fact that waiting to find out more about her condition is (for you) unnecessary). > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > I will state again, one more time for the hard of reading. This is not Schivio, nothing similar about it. No, but most of the things you’ve said about the case are identical. People here and elsewhere could talk or post your ear off with reasons Terri Schiavo was obviously alive, communicating, and could recover. And Florida and the husband were killing her because “they haven’t allowed!” this that or the other thing. But at the end of the day, there was no medical ambiguity about what was happening. So in that respect, all of this seems very familiar. If this girl is capable of recovering and living any kind of life, I suspect we’ll find out about that soon. > [@](#): > > It amazes me that some people on here are better then the best doctors in the world at explaining PVS, wow and here I thought PVS was still uncertain and misdiagnosed with some frequency. There are definitely those who believe it’s misdiagnosed that often, but I don’t see why this pokes holes in **Kalhoun** ’s statement. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/119 "2006-01-21T21:13:30Z")
Abbie’s definition of “life” appears to be literal. As long as the cells are still technically alive, that’s all that matters to her. And that’s her business. Most people, however, consider the quality of that life when deciding whether or not they’d want to be kept alive under these circumstances. There is no reason to believe this kid will have a “life” in the conscious, productive, meaningful definition most of us use to define ourselves. If Abbie, should something horrible befall her, want to be defined as a mass of cells without the “personality” that defines the individual, that’s her right. However, the majority of people need more than that. Mistakes are made every day in medicine, but to go out on a limb and suggest that a thin chance of a miraculous recovery warrants keeping someone on life support indefinitely is to cheapen the definition of “life” as most people interpret it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/120 "2006-01-21T22:09:33Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > This was “Allison Avrett, Haleigh’s biological mother”… And would that be the same biological mother who lost custody of Haleigh because of “substantiated charges of abuse?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=7)