# Are people too willing to pull life support? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648 "2006-01-19T13:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/121 "2006-01-22T13:31:04Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > It amazes me that some people on here are better then the best doctors in the world at explaining PVS, wow and here I thought PVS was still uncertain and misdiagnosed with some frequency. > > [http://www.cwu.edu/~chem/courses/Chem564/finalpapers/PVSfinal.html](http://www.cwu.edu/~chem/courses/Chem564/finalpapers/PVSfinal.html) > [http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13](http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13) No one is claiming to know more than the doctors. A _few_ doctors think there _might_ be “some” improvement. I have yet to see one of them claim that the chances are good or that the improvement she might make would positively impact the quality of her life. EVERYTHING is misdiagnosed with some frequency. Are you saying we should never listen to the majority opinion because a few doctors (who are overstating the obvious) say that she “might” improve? Yeah…monkeys “might” fly outta my butt, too. But I’m not going to call a news conference to cover the possible event. ---
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/122 "2006-01-23T22:25:59Z")
I have to agree with the ‘not willing enough’ response, personally. I have informed all my family and loved ones that if I ever wind up in a PVS, or even loose my mind to Alzheimer’s to the point that I’m unable to feed myself, wipe my own bottom or make contact with reality, that they are to for the love of God put a pillow over my face and kill me. I do not want to live like that for years while they waste their time and money holding out for a miracle. I didn’t see anyone mention the case of the Arkansas man who woke up from a coma of 19 years. This happened right about the same time as the Schivo case and was used by the ‘never give up’ crowd as an example of their being right, but I watched a documentary of him on television and all I could think was that it would have been a mercy for him to be allowed to die. He is a quadraplegic and cannot do anything for himself. He has a lot of brain damage, and he is incapable of learning anything new. He thinks it is still 19 years ago, and he gets very angry if told otherwise. He’s like a damaged toddler and probably will be for the rest of his life. I know a lot of people will think I am totally dispicable for even thinking it, but I have to say that I honestly believe that at some point the good of the many does trump the good of the few or the one. It costs a mint to keep these people alive. It takes up vast amounts of time from doctors, nurses, family and caregivers. There are people around the world, hell, in this country, dying for the lack of a few hundred dollars worth of medicine. There are people who could become productive with just a little help and care. To the person who suggested that someone in this state may be living in a blissfull dream, are you really so selfish that you’d have people around you in misery, hoping against hope, sitting by your side instead of living their lives, and going bankrupt, just so you can live in a dream? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/123 "2006-01-29T01:10:24Z")
Let me guess, you all will see another reason they should of let this girl die. Which I should remind everyone they wanted to do months ago… > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, the state’s top child-protection official visited Haleigh for the first time at the Springfield pediatric intensive care unit, where she had been since September, and said he noticed her picking up toys on command and tracking his movement with her eyes. > **[Girl with damage to brain spends first day in rehab](http://archive.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/01/28/girl_with_damage_to_brain_spends_first_day_in_rehab/)** > > Haleigh Poutre, a brain-damaged girl whose life support had been nearly withdrawn, spent her first full day in a special unit of a Brighton rehabilitation hospital yesterday, living with nearly 40 other patients like her who have neurological and... ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/124 "2006-01-29T01:53:01Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Let me guess, you all will see another reason they should of let this girl die. Which I should remind everyone they wanted to do months ago… The article does not really identify this person except for calling him “the state’s top child-protection official.” What the hell does that even mean? That’s not a job title. Who is he? Who does he work for? How did he get in the room? Does anyone corroborate his tale? If this person is not a doctor (and the article gives no indication that he is), his opinion is uninformed and worthless and possibly agenda driven. We heard a lot of fantastic claims about Schiavo too. From what I can glean from the article, the doctors have not rescinded the diagnosis of PVS. Until that happens, there’s no story here. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/125 "2006-01-29T04:15:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The article does not really identify this person except for calling him “the state’s top child-protection official.” What the hell does that even mean? That’s not a job title. Who is he? Who does he work for? How did he get in the room? Does anyone corroborate his tale? If this person is not a doctor (and the article gives no indication that he is), his opinion is uninformed and worthless and possibly agenda driven. We heard a lot of fantastic claims about Schiavo too. From what I can glean from the article, the doctors have not rescinded the diagnosis of PVS. Until that happens, there’s no story here. So that means if you are not a doctor (and your posting history gives no indication that you are) your opinion is uninformed and most certainly agenda driven correct? Do you bother to read the articles? From the same article that explains they are moving the child to a rehabilitation hospital comes this. > [@](#): > > “'To be here, you have to have some rehabilitation potential,” said Dr. Virginia Kharasch, a pediatric pulmonary specialist" Oh and in case you don’t want to read anymore on this, I will spell it out simple enough for you. The head honcho who observed these improvements, was the very same gentleman who 1 month after the child was abused, tried to pull the plug on her. Let me even go further in clarifying the case so that you do not have to spend more then 10 seconds on researching before you post. September 11th 2005 Haleigh is admitted to the hospital with severe abuse signs September 12th 2005 The state concludes there is reasonable cause that the girl was abused September 13th 2005 The state DSS takes custody of Haleigh September 30th 2005 The state DSS (Headed by DSS Commissioner Harry Spence) went to court to remove life support. \ ***1** Between September 30th and January 17th the abusing step father fought (for his own selfish reasons no doubt) to keep her alive. January 17th 2006 Supreme Judicial Court approves life support removal. January 18th 2006 Haleigh begins breathing on her own, as well as showing some responses to stimuli. Between then and now, more then one person (doctors are barred from talking) have stated she is responding to commands. One such person was DSS Commissioner Harry Spence the very same man who fought to have her removed from life support. Talk about an oh shit moment for that man! Now to go into some PVS talk. Regarding \*\*\*1 \*\* > [@](#): > > State officials had asked that Haleigh Poutre’s ventilator and feeding tube be withdrawn after doctors said she was in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery. > [@](#): > > The state Department of Social Services has custody of the girl and wants to remove her from life support, **citing opinions from her doctors that the girl is in a permanent vegetative state.** Bolding minehttp://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/17/life.support.ap/ Wow looks like they where opinions, and the looking like the wrong ones eh. The interesting thing is only waiting 3 weeks to make this decision that she was PVS. Thats miraculous because everyone else says you have to wait at least a month, and even longer in children. Everyone else you ask? Why sure I will oblige you with some quotes. > [@](#): > > Persistent Vegetative State (PVS): A clinical condition of complete unawareness of the self and environment. Even though PVS patients may exhibit sleep wake cycles, they show no evidence of response to or understanding of environmental stimuli. Unlike with a coma, there is no reasonable hope for recovery for those in a PVS. Normally it takes up to 3 months to make a definitive diagnosis of PVS for patients who suffered a loss of oxygen to the brain. It\*\* can take a year to make a definitive diagnosis of PVS for patients who suffered a blow to the head\*\*. Although life expectancy for patients in a PVS is between two and five years, there a a number of cases where PVS patients are sustained on life support for decades. It has been estimated that there are somewhere between 15,000 and 35,000 PVS patients being sustained in the U.S. at any given time. > > ``` > * Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs (Council). 1990. "Persistent Vegetative State and the Decision to Withdraw or Withhold Life Support," Journal of the American Medical Association. Vol. 263, pp. 426-30. > * Multi-Society Task Force on PVS. 1994. "Medical Aspects of the Persistent Vegetative State" The New England Journal of Medicine. Vol 330, pp. 1499-1508 and pp. 1572-1579. > > ``` [http://www.dickinson.edu/endoflife/Glossary.html#Persistent](http://www.dickinson.edu/endoflife/Glossary.html#Persistent) And even then they can be wrong! > [@](#): > > The Royal College of Physicians’ report on the permanent vegetative state3 supports the view expressed by others that the diagnosis requires regular assessment and taking into account the observations by carers and family.5 However, even these conditions can result in misdiagnosis. Childs et al reported that 37% of patients admitted more than one month after injury with a diagnosis of coma or persistent vegetative state had some level of awareness.7 In a group of longer term patients in a nursing home, Tresch et al found that 18% of those diagnosed as being in the persistent vegetative state were aware of themselves or their environment [http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13](http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13) Well I am getting tired, and spelling something out for someone I know is intelligent enough to read about it themselves, before arguing gets boring to me. My debate still stands, are we to willing to take a doctors opinion and kill someone based on it. Mistakes, happen, but when death is the end result, they shouldn’t be allowed to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/126 "2006-01-29T04:32:26Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > So that means if you are not a doctor (and your posting history gives no indication that you are) your opinion is uninformed and most certainly agenda driven correct? I have not expressed a medical opinion. I’ve merely chosen to accept the as yet unchanged diagnosis of the real doctors. > [@](#): > > Do you bother to read the articles? From the same article that explains they are moving the child to a rehabilitation hospital comes this. Means nothing. The diagnosis of PVS has not been rescinded. > [@](#): > > Oh and in case you don’t want to read anymore on this, I will spell it out simple enough for you. The head honcho who observed these improvements, was the very same gentleman who 1 month after the child was abused, tried to pull the plug on her. So what? > [@](#): > > Between then and now, more then one person (doctors are barred from talking) have stated she is responding to commands. One such person was DSS Commissioner Harry Spence the very same man who fought to have her removed from life support. Talk about an oh shit moment for that man! Talk about a meaningless opinion. The diagnosis of PVS has not changed. > [@](#): > > Wow looks like they where opinions, and the looking like the wrong ones eh. The interesting thing is only waiting 3 weeks to make this decision that she was PVS. Thats miraculous because everyone else says you have to wait at least a month, and even longer in children. Everyone else you ask? Why sure I will oblige you with some quotes. What does any of this have to do with the price of tea? This patient’s diagnosis has not changed. > [@](#): > > Well I am getting tired, and spelling something out for someone I know is intelligent enough to read about it themselves, before arguing gets boring to me. > My debate still stands, are we to willing to take a doctors opinion and kill someone based on it. Mistakes, happen, but when death is the end result, they shouldn’t be allowed to happen. The state wasn’t trying to “kill” anyone. That’s a misstatement of the facts on your part. Withdrawing artificial life support is not “killing.” It’s allowing a person to die naturally. I would also argue that even a change in diagnosis from PVS to minimally conscious is, for all intents and purposes, a distinction without a difference. It’s still cruel and pointless to keep her alive and it would have been no tragedy at all to have pulled the plug as originally planned. Ifone of my kids ever in a PVS, I’m yanking the plug. If one of them is ever in a minimally conscious state (with no hope of anything better), I’m STILL yanking the plug. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/127 "2006-01-29T11:38:14Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If one of my kids ever in a PVS, I’m yanking the plug. If one of them is ever in a minimally conscious state (with no hope of anything better), I’m STILL yanking the plug. Ditto. Rehabilitation (“learning skills such as _swallowing_”) for someone with this type of injury is so minimal that the use of the word is extremely misleading. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/128 "2006-01-29T16:57:59Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Ditto. > > Rehabilitation (“learning skills such as _swallowing_”) for someone with this type of injury is so minimal that the use of the word is extremely misleading. So now, wait, let me get this straight. It no longer has to do with swallowing, responding to commands, breathing on your own, you have to be what exactly to be allowed to live? Once she learns to swallow she will no be dependent on machines so we should euthanize her? You both ( **DtC and Kalhoun** ) are assuming more then the experts who are now involved in this case. The lead doctor if you recall from my previous posts was all alone in his **opinion**. But it amazes me you two are still saying PVS when its extremely doubtful at this point. But if it makes your argument right I suppose you can overlook that. I also like how you are trying to get wiggle room so when they do say it was most certainly not PVS you can still make your argument that who cares you still say thats no way to live, kill her. > [@](#): > > Haleigh has been transferred from Baystate Medical Center in Springfield, the pediatric intensive-care unit where she had been since September, to the Franciscan Hospital for Children in Boston. The move came two days after Spence visited her and saw her pick up a Curious George stuffed toy and a yellow duck on command and was **based on a second opinion from a pediatric neurologist** now part of team of doctors that DSS has gathered for Haleigh’s case. [http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/012806ReasonForHope.html](http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/012806ReasonForHope.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/129 "2006-01-29T17:13:21Z")
Wake me up when they change the diagnosis. I still say a minimally conscious state is no better than a PVS and NOBODY has said anything about “killing”, so you should really quit throwing that word around. This is not about TAKING a life, it’s about making a decision about whether it’s warranted to use extraordinary measures to keep somebody alive artificially. I’m not cruel and selfish enough that I could force someone I loved to exist in a state of living death like that. The compassionate thing is to let them go. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/130 "2006-01-29T17:36:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Wake me up when they change the diagnosis. > > I still say a minimally conscious state is no better than a PVS and NOBODY has said anything about “killing”, so you should really quit throwing that word around. This is not about TAKING a life, it’s about making a decision about whether it’s warranted to use extraordinary measures to keep somebody alive artificially. I’m not cruel and selfish enough that I could force someone I loved to exist in a state of living death like that. The compassionate thing is to let them go. Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/131 "2006-01-29T18:09:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Wake me up when they change the diagnosis. > > I still say a minimally conscious state is no better than a PVS and NOBODY has said anything about “killing”, so you should really quit throwing that word around. This is not about TAKING a life, it’s about making a decision about whether it’s warranted to use extraordinary measures to keep somebody alive artificially. I’m not cruel and selfish enough that I could force someone I loved to exist in a state of living death like that. The compassionate thing is to let them go. You are failing to understand that the only doctor who “diagnosed” her could not of done so under any medical doctrine as he did so in under 3 weeks! Something the experts say is not possible! So therefore her initial diagnosis was WRONG. I made that clear in the posts above, beyond a doubt. But I see it doesn’t fit your mold so you can dismiss it. > [@](#): > > kill1 (kĭl) pronunciation > > v., killed, kill·ing, kills. > > v.tr. > > 1. > 1. To put to death. > 2. To deprive of life [http://www.answers.com/kill&r=67](http://www.answers.com/kill&r=67) And yes, this is KILL, as in deprive of life as in put to death. Cruel or selfish? No you are actually both, this girl is now responding to commands, and yet you see no reason to let her live. Luckily those of us who do understand life is worth more then death can happily go about our business knowing this is the reason you and others that think like you will never be in control. Once she swallows, and does not need to be fed by machine the last of the machines are gone from her, and now you move from PVS to something else entirely after argument one fails move to argument two, whats next? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/132 "2006-01-29T21:16:18Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > You are failing to understand that the only doctor who “diagnosed” her could not of done so under any medical doctrine as he did so in under 3 weeks! Something the experts say is not possible! So therefore her initial diagnosis was WRONG. I made that clear in the posts above, beyond a doubt. But I see it doesn’t fit your mold so you can dismiss it. > > [http://www.answers.com/kill&r=67](http://www.answers.com/kill&r=67) > > And yes, this is KILL, as in deprive of life as in put to death. > > Cruel or selfish? No you are actually both, this girl is now responding to commands, and yet you see no reason to let her live. Luckily those of us who do understand life is worth more then death can happily go about our business knowing this is the reason you and others that think like you will never be in control. > Once she swallows, and does not need to be fed by machine the last of the machines are gone from her, and now you move from PVS to something else entirely after argument one fails move to argument two, whats next? “_Once she swallows_”…means she may have graduated to a “vegetative state”, according to this article: > [@](#): > > The vegetative state is a chronic or long-term condition. This condition differs from a persistent vegetative state (PVS, a state of coma that lacks both awareness and wakefulness) since patients have awakened from coma, but still have not regained awareness. In the vegetative state patients can open their eyelids occasionally and demonstrate sleep-wake cycles. They also completely lack cognitive function. The vegetative state is also called coma vigil. > [@](#): > > Patients in a vegetative state apparently have functioning of a special area in the brain called the reticular activating system (RAS) responsible for sleep-wake cycles. The connections that integrate more complex abilities such as awareness are interrupted. Patients in the vegetative state can open and close eyes spontaneously. **They may appear to track or follow objects with their eyes. Patients may chew and swallow food placed in the mouth.** The vegetative patient does not respond to sound, hunger, or pain. Patients cannot obey verbal commands and lack local motor responses. Additionally these patients cannot talk in comprehendible terms and they may become noisy, restless, and hypermobility. These patients are in a state or arousal but completely lack awareness. [http://health.enotes.com/medicine-encyclopedia/vegetative-state#Causes%20and%20symptoms](http://health.enotes.com/medicine-encyclopedia/vegetative-state#Causes%20and%20symptoms) I don’t think I’d be celebrating just yet. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/133 "2006-01-29T21:25:15Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > “_Once she swallows_”…means she may have graduated to a “vegetative state”, according to this article: > > [http://health.enotes.com/medicine-encyclopedia/vegetative-state#Causes%20and%20symptoms](http://health.enotes.com/medicine-encyclopedia/vegetative-state#Causes%20and%20symptoms) > > I don’t think I’d be celebrating just yet. Yeah but I see you fail to mention , > [@](#): > > **DSS commissioner Harry Spence** maintains that his agency has properly handled the case despite there being signs of abuse before the girl was hospitalized in September as a result of a beating. He says health professionals had believed that she was harming herself. > > Haleigh has been transferred from Baystate Medical Center in Springfield, the pediatric intensive-care unit where she had been since September, to the Franciscan Hospital for Children in Boston. T **he move came two days after Spence visited her and saw her pick up a Curious George stuffed toy and a yellow duck on command and was based on a second opinion from a pediatric neurologist now part of team of doctors** that DSS has gathered for Haleigh’s case. [http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/012806ReasonForHope.html](http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/012806ReasonForHope.html) Thats a bit more then a vegetable can do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/134 "2006-01-29T21:28:18Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Yeah but I see you fail to mention , > > [http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/012806ReasonForHope.html](http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/012806ReasonForHope.html) > > Thats a bit more then a vegetable can do. In that article, they claim that a woman who was stone blind followed a balloon with her eyes. Their fact-checking leaves something to be desired. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/135 "2006-01-29T21:34:22Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > In that article, they claim that a woman who was stone blind followed a balloon with her eyes. Their fact-checking leaves something to be desired. Here is another article that discusses this case, that article was biased, and after further review I withdraw it. [http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=123289](http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=123289) > [@](#): > > DSS honcho Harry Spence says he watched Haleigh grasp toys on command and follow noises with her eyes Tuesday night, his spokeswoman And another > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, the state’s top child-protection official visited Haleigh for the first time at the Springfield pediatric intensive care unit, where she had been since September, and said he noticed her picking up toys on command and tracking his movement with her eyes. > **[Girl with damage to brain spends first day in rehab](http://archive.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/01/28/girl_with_damage_to_brain_spends_first_day_in_rehab/)** > > Haleigh Poutre, a brain-damaged girl whose life support had been nearly withdrawn, spent her first full day in a special unit of a Brighton rehabilitation hospital yesterday, living with nearly 40 other patients like her who have neurological and... ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/136 "2006-01-29T21:36:29Z")
**Abbie Normal** forgive my personal comment, but perhaps your feelings on this are biased because your daughter was recently diagnosed with autism, and you somehow feel that this issue is a judgment call on you and your family? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/137 "2006-01-29T22:04:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Abbie Normal** forgive my personal comment, but perhaps your feelings on this are biased because your daughter was recently diagnosed with autism, and you somehow feel that this issue is a judgment call on you and your family? (hijack my own thread) You know this post was a gut check, and you know what there is a corrolation because I found out about it (the Haleigh situation) while searching for misdiagnosed problems (having to do with my daughter going deaf) But the Haleigh case really pulled at me, not because the right to die is a fighting cause for me. I was not against letting Schiavo pass away as some in this thread wrongly assumed. I was against allowing certain doctors opinions decide the fate of anyone, let alone a child. Where as other posters in this thread have an agenda IMHO brought on by the Schiavo case, I have none, I see different settings for different situations. And I believe in some cases such as the Haleigh case, the state was to willing to pull the plug based on ONE doctors opinion. As for my daughters autism/deafness some of my more venomous posts in this thread, where probably in direct relation to my mood at those times. I am normally a less confrontational person. And when confronted I normally do not lose my cool, and I did allow some of the posters in this thread to get under my skin. I was away from SDMB for a few months, and during those months I lost a lot of myself, but now I am trying to return to normal, both in life, and online. (/hijack of my own thread) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/138 "2006-01-30T01:42:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I was against allowing certain doctors opinions decide the fate of anyone, let alone a child. “Certain doctors’ opinions” (aka. multiply corroborated medical diagnoses) had nothing to do with with deciding anybody’s fate. The Schiavo decision was made by Terri Schiavo herself. In the case of a child, that decision about whether to discontinue medical treatment (which is NOT “euthanasia”) has to be made by a proxy, i.e. that child’s parent or guardian. Since this particular child appears to be a ward of the state, then it’s perfectly appropriate that the state make the decision. If this child cannot recover (and so far, there is no prognosis that she can) then there is no reason to continue to expend state funds on artificial life support. If there were a hypothetical parent who was willing to foot the bill to keep this child technically alive, then I’m sure the state would not prevent that. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/139 "2006-01-30T01:52:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > “Certain doctors’ opinions” (aka. multiply corroborated medical diagnoses) had nothing to do with with deciding anybody’s fate. The Schiavo decision was made by Terri Schiavo herself. In the case of a child, that decision about whether to discontinue medical treatment (which is NOT “euthanasia”) has to be made by a proxy, i.e. that child’s parent or guardian. Since this particular child appears to be a ward of the state, then it’s perfectly appropriate that the state make the decision. If this child cannot recover (and so far, there is no prognosis that she can) then there is no reason to continue to expend state funds on artificial life support. If there were a hypothetical parent who was willing to foot the bill to keep this child technically alive, then I’m sure the state would not prevent that. Using your argument, there is no prognosis that she will not recover either. Since it was ONE doctor who pronounced his opinion that she was PVS, and now other doctors saying she is improving. You have proven to be more interested in pushing your agenda that debating this particular case. I notice you are no longer trying to say it is not KILLING which in every which way it is. Makes it sound icky eh. So this is about money? What I want to say is not for GD, so it will be left unsaid. But I must say this, your argument is so vile, that only someone that has money has a right to be kept alive is so sick it deserves its own brand of sickness. And on that note, I find it best to not respond to your repeated attempts to make this a Schiavo debate. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648/140 "2006-01-30T02:27:42Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Using your argument, there is no prognosis that she will not recover either. Yes there is. > [@](#): > > Since it was ONE doctor who pronounced his opinion that she was PVS, and now other doctors saying she is improving. There are no doctors who have changed the diagnosis. > [@](#): > > You have proven to be more interested in pushing your agenda that debating this particular case. What agenda is that? > [@](#): > > I notice you are no longer trying to say it is not KILLING which in every which way it is. Yes I am. It’s not killing. Calling it killing is a lie. [quoet]Makes it sound icky eh. [/quote] No, it’s just not accurate. > [@](#): > > So this is about money? As far as the state is concerned, yes. > [@](#): > > What I want to say is not for GD, so it will be left unsaid. But I must say this, your argument is so vile, that only someone that has money has a right to be kept alive is so sick it deserves its own brand of sickness. That isn’t what I said. I’m saying that, in the absence of any other guardian, the state had to make a practical decision about whether it was worth the expenditure to keep a vegetable alive. Since this person has no chance of recovery, it made the decision to ask for life support to be discontinued, Discontinuing life support IS NOT KILLING. > [@](#): > > And on that note, I find it best to not respond to your repeated attempts to make this a Schiavo debate. Interesting, since I’ve made no such attempt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-people-too-willing-to-pull-life-support/340648.md?page=8)