“Responding” doesn’t mean conscious response. They could well be talking about automatic reflexes. I see no reason to believe the diagnosis of a vegetative state is unsound.
By the way, the state wasn’t going to “kill” her. They were going to quit keeping her alive artificially. There’s a difference.
Where are you getting the idea that “response” includes anything more than breathing? That’s the only thing I can find in any of those articles.
(Hit reply too soon. The above was addressed to the OP’s last post.)
Okay look I cannot debate something when someone does not even read anything posted, it is in the original OP
Bolding mine.
“Responding to stimuli” does not necessarily imply anything other than automatic, unconscious reflexes. It could mean nothing more than that her pupils dilate under a light. There is nothing in any of this to suggest that this patient is about to recover from a vegetative state.
Or it could mean she is recovering, you can be a pessimist, thats fine but doesn’t negate that it is an improvement.
The diagnosis, apparently, is that she can’t recover. You’ve shown us nothing to indicate that diagnosis is wrong. I’m willing to take the experts’ word for it. They more than I do and I am not impressed by some breathing.
Just because the part of her brain controlling reflexes may be working doesn’t mean that her entire brain will recover so nicely. That’s not pessimism, it’s anatomy.
It’s not about optimism or pessimism. The meaning of “response” is not defined, so at this time, your intimations that she is conscious or wants to live are not justified. Since the state of Massachusetts seems to have decided not to take her off life support pending further tests, I don’t see why this makes you wonder if we’re too willing to pull people off life support. Massachusetts doesn’t seem overeager here, and it’s the doctors say-so that’s keeping her on life support.
Did you bother to read any of the multiple cites? I recall at least two that stated childrens brains are able to recover better then adults for some reason. It is **more **then breathing but thats okay, I have noticed the Cynic in your nickname, and take it at its word. Its like debating with a stone wall, you can say whatever you want but it won’t pay attention it is set in stone. I can rest assured if it was one of my children with “no hopes of recovery” and the next day she starts breathing on her own, and responding to stimuli, I will take that as an improvement. Something you cannot see. Blinded by your pre-set beliefs.
Ahh now you are catching on, if the abuser did not fight this in court she would of been allowed to die before these improvements (That where not supposed to occur) happened. The abuser probably fought for his own ass, but regardless if it was not for his fight to keep her alive, they may of pulled the plug a while ago based on her diagnosis of PVS. Which may or may not be wrong based on these recent events.
You haven’t shown us any evidence that this person has regained or has any chance of regaining consciousness. The “responses” referred to in these articles are completely undefined and that makes me think they must not be indicative of consciousness. There is nothing in any of these stories to indicate that the diagnosis of a permanent vegetative state is incorrect. It may be possible for this child to “improve” enough to breathe on her own, but I’d hardly call that a recovery. The article linked in the OP also says that some patients with severe brain stem injuries can “partially” recover but that " they rarely recover fully enough to communicate, feed themselves and live ordinary lives." There is nothing in any of the articles to suggest that this child will recover even to that limited degree.
I have two children. I would prefer not to torture myself with false hope in these circumstances, nor would I want to inflict any sort of artificial living death on them. I see from the article that the girl’s mother supported removing her daughter from life support. That’s the only opinion that should matter.
So what?
Until they tell us what they mean by “responds to medical stimuli”, there is no evidence that she is in any way recovering. People with PVS can and do “respond” to stimuli, but it doesn’t mean anything. They might even grunt, smile, or any number of other similar things, but none of them are necessarily indicators that there is any improvement or that she no longer is in a vegetative state. Here (warning: PDF) is a paper from the AMA on PVS.
As stated earlier, I’m perfectly fine with them doing tests until they are completely satisfied (and no one has seemed to be in a big hurry to disconnect her anyway), but there is still absolutely nothing to lead us to believe that this girl will be anything but a vegetable no matter how long she is kept alive. If that happesn to change, then I’m all for keeping her alive forever, as well as studying her medical profile to see where the diagnosis went wrong. We currently don’t have any information to back that up, so it’s just wishful thinking. Any further claims that the doctors are trying to kill her, that she’s fighting for her life, or that she’s improving are going to need some evidence to back them up.
Someone once said:
Perhaps you should take that to heart before continuing with the accusations and prognoses.
I get the feeling that this case has rather more in common with Karen Ann Quinlan than with Tery Schiavo.
With technology 30 years more primitive, there was a huge debate whether or not they should pull the plug on Ms. Quinlan. Finally, they did pull the plug–and nothing changed.
I’m not sure that the people who argued for pulling the plug on Haleigh wanted her to die; they just wanted to let the natural process continue. If she unexpectedly recovers, so much the better. If she dies, then perhaps she never had a chance, anyway.
Without accurate information regarding her ability to survive without support, (information that we may not have the knowledge to secure), it is all just speculation on both sides.
You started a thread on a topic you know nothing about. The doctors said she’s a vegetable with no chance of recovering anything even resembling her old life. She “improved”? She’s breathing on her own. Whoop-de-doo. There’s nothing there that changes the fact that she is a vegetable. We can only hope she’s not aware of the bullshit they’re putting her through. Hey! Maybe she’ll get well enough to grunt! Won’t that be a joyous day?
Sorry for the dlight hijack, but Kalhoun can I ask you something? Is your Dad married? The reason I ask this is my mother is terrified of death. She is of the “I want to live forever on machines” type. My father is admant that he not ever be kept on machines. Mom has expressed that she doesn’t think she could bring herself to pull the plug, but understands this is what he wants. He took me aside when I was 18 and asked me to promise I would see the plug pulled, and I did so. I had been wondering if we could have papers drawn up basically bypassing her as his next of kin in this situation.
(I have secured a mutual promise from him to pull my plug if needs be, but it should be fine for him and not my mom to sign my paper in that case)
You confuse “killing” with “letting her die”, which is the kindest thing they can do.
So she lives to be 80. Who do you think is going to pay for that?
Yeah, they poke her in the foot and she might wiggle her toes. Gee…maybe next week she’ll walk. Oh. That’s right. PVS victims don’t walk. They stay in bed forever. Unaware that their foot moved.