No one is claiming to know more than the doctors. A few doctors think there might be “some” improvement. I have yet to see one of them claim that the chances are good or that the improvement she might make would positively impact the quality of her life.
EVERYTHING is misdiagnosed with some frequency. Are you saying we should never listen to the majority opinion because a few doctors (who are overstating the obvious) say that she “might” improve? Yeah…monkeys “might” fly outta my butt, too. But I’m not going to call a news conference to cover the possible event.
I have to agree with the ‘not willing enough’ response, personally. I have informed all my family and loved ones that if I ever wind up in a PVS, or even loose my mind to Alzheimer’s to the point that I’m unable to feed myself, wipe my own bottom or make contact with reality, that they are to for the love of God put a pillow over my face and kill me. I do not want to live like that for years while they waste their time and money holding out for a miracle.
I didn’t see anyone mention the case of the Arkansas man who woke up from a coma of 19 years. This happened right about the same time as the Schivo case and was used by the ‘never give up’ crowd as an example of their being right, but I watched a documentary of him on television and all I could think was that it would have been a mercy for him to be allowed to die. He is a quadraplegic and cannot do anything for himself. He has a lot of brain damage, and he is incapable of learning anything new. He thinks it is still 19 years ago, and he gets very angry if told otherwise. He’s like a damaged toddler and probably will be for the rest of his life.
I know a lot of people will think I am totally dispicable for even thinking it, but I have to say that I honestly believe that at some point the good of the many does trump the good of the few or the one. It costs a mint to keep these people alive. It takes up vast amounts of time from doctors, nurses, family and caregivers. There are people around the world, hell, in this country, dying for the lack of a few hundred dollars worth of medicine. There are people who could become productive with just a little help and care. To the person who suggested that someone in this state may be living in a blissfull dream, are you really so selfish that you’d have people around you in misery, hoping against hope, sitting by your side instead of living their lives, and going bankrupt, just so you can live in a dream?
The article does not really identify this person except for calling him “the state’s top child-protection official.” What the hell does that even mean? That’s not a job title. Who is he? Who does he work for? How did he get in the room? Does anyone corroborate his tale? If this person is not a doctor (and the article gives no indication that he is), his opinion is uninformed and worthless and possibly agenda driven. We heard a lot of fantastic claims about Schiavo too. From what I can glean from the article, the doctors have not rescinded the diagnosis of PVS. Until that happens, there’s no story here.
So that means if you are not a doctor (and your posting history gives no indication that you are) your opinion is uninformed and most certainly agenda driven correct?
Do you bother to read the articles? From the same article that explains they are moving the child to a rehabilitation hospital comes this.
Oh and in case you don’t want to read anymore on this, I will spell it out simple enough for you. The head honcho who observed these improvements, was the very same gentleman who 1 month after the child was abused, tried to pull the plug on her.
Let me even go further in clarifying the case so that you do not have to spend more then 10 seconds on researching before you post.
September 11th 2005 Haleigh is admitted to the hospital with severe abuse signs
September 12th 2005 The state concludes there is reasonable cause that the girl was abused
September 13th 2005 The state DSS takes custody of Haleigh
September 30th 2005 The state DSS (Headed by DSS Commissioner Harry Spence) went to court to remove life support. *1
Between September 30th and January 17th the abusing step father fought (for his own selfish reasons no doubt) to keep her alive.
January 17th 2006 Supreme Judicial Court approves life support removal.
January 18th 2006 Haleigh begins breathing on her own, as well as showing some responses to stimuli.
Between then and now, more then one person (doctors are barred from talking) have stated she is responding to commands. One such person was DSS Commissioner Harry Spence the very same man who fought to have her removed from life support. Talk about an oh shit moment for that man!
Wow looks like they where opinions, and the looking like the wrong ones eh. The interesting thing is only waiting 3 weeks to make this decision that she was PVS. Thats miraculous because everyone else says you have to wait at least a month, and even longer in children. Everyone else you ask? Why sure I will oblige you with some quotes.
Well I am getting tired, and spelling something out for someone I know is intelligent enough to read about it themselves, before arguing gets boring to me.
My debate still stands, are we to willing to take a doctors opinion and kill someone based on it. Mistakes, happen, but when death is the end result, they shouldn’t be allowed to happen.
I have not expressed a medical opinion. I’ve merely chosen to accept the as yet unchanged diagnosis of the real doctors.
Means nothing. The diagnosis of PVS has not been rescinded.
So what?
Talk about a meaningless opinion. The diagnosis of PVS has not changed.
What does any of this have to do with the price of tea? This patient’s diagnosis has not changed.
The state wasn’t trying to “kill” anyone. That’s a misstatement of the facts on your part. Withdrawing artificial life support is not “killing.” It’s allowing a person to die naturally.
I would also argue that even a change in diagnosis from PVS to minimally conscious is, for all intents and purposes, a distinction without a difference. It’s still cruel and pointless to keep her alive and it would have been no tragedy at all to have pulled the plug as originally planned. Ifone of my kids ever in a PVS, I’m yanking the plug. If one of them is ever in a minimally conscious state (with no hope of anything better), I’m STILL yanking the plug.
Rehabilitation (“learning skills such as swallowing”) for someone with this type of injury is so minimal that the use of the word is extremely misleading.
So now, wait, let me get this straight. It no longer has to do with swallowing, responding to commands, breathing on your own, you have to be what exactly to be allowed to live? Once she learns to swallow she will no be dependent on machines so we should euthanize her? You both (DtC and Kalhoun) are assuming more then the experts who are now involved in this case. The lead doctor if you recall from my previous posts was all alone in his opinion. But it amazes me you two are still saying PVS when its extremely doubtful at this point. But if it makes your argument right I suppose you can overlook that.
I also like how you are trying to get wiggle room so when they do say it was most certainly not PVS you can still make your argument that who cares you still say thats no way to live, kill her.
I still say a minimally conscious state is no better than a PVS and NOBODY has said anything about “killing”, so you should really quit throwing that word around. This is not about TAKING a life, it’s about making a decision about whether it’s warranted to use extraordinary measures to keep somebody alive artificially. I’m not cruel and selfish enough that I could force someone I loved to exist in a state of living death like that. The compassionate thing is to let them go.
You are failing to understand that the only doctor who “diagnosed” her could not of done so under any medical doctrine as he did so in under 3 weeks! Something the experts say is not possible! So therefore her initial diagnosis was WRONG. I made that clear in the posts above, beyond a doubt. But I see it doesn’t fit your mold so you can dismiss it.
And yes, this is KILL, as in deprive of life as in put to death.
Cruel or selfish? No you are actually both, this girl is now responding to commands, and yet you see no reason to let her live. Luckily those of us who do understand life is worth more then death can happily go about our business knowing this is the reason you and others that think like you will never be in control.
Once she swallows, and does not need to be fed by machine the last of the machines are gone from her, and now you move from PVS to something else entirely after argument one fails move to argument two, whats next?
Abbie Normal forgive my personal comment, but perhaps your feelings on this are biased because your daughter was recently diagnosed with autism, and you somehow feel that this issue is a judgment call on you and your family?
(hijack my own thread) You know this post was a gut check, and you know what there is a corrolation because I found out about it (the Haleigh situation) while searching for misdiagnosed problems (having to do with my daughter going deaf) But the Haleigh case really pulled at me, not because the right to die is a fighting cause for me. I was not against letting Schiavo pass away as some in this thread wrongly assumed. I was against allowing certain doctors opinions decide the fate of anyone, let alone a child.
Where as other posters in this thread have an agenda IMHO brought on by the Schiavo case, I have none, I see different settings for different situations. And I believe in some cases such as the Haleigh case, the state was to willing to pull the plug based on ONE doctors opinion.
As for my daughters autism/deafness some of my more venomous posts in this thread, where probably in direct relation to my mood at those times. I am normally a less confrontational person. And when confronted I normally do not lose my cool, and I did allow some of the posters in this thread to get under my skin.
I was away from SDMB for a few months, and during those months I lost a lot of myself, but now I am trying to return to normal, both in life, and online. (/hijack of my own thread)
“Certain doctors’ opinions” (aka. multiply corroborated medical diagnoses) had nothing to do with with deciding anybody’s fate. The Schiavo decision was made by Terri Schiavo herself. In the case of a child, that decision about whether to discontinue medical treatment (which is NOT “euthanasia”) has to be made by a proxy, i.e. that child’s parent or guardian. Since this particular child appears to be a ward of the state, then it’s perfectly appropriate that the state make the decision. If this child cannot recover (and so far, there is no prognosis that she can) then there is no reason to continue to expend state funds on artificial life support. If there were a hypothetical parent who was willing to foot the bill to keep this child technically alive, then I’m sure the state would not prevent that.
Using your argument, there is no prognosis that she will not recover either. Since it was ONE doctor who pronounced his opinion that she was PVS, and now other doctors saying she is improving. You have proven to be more interested in pushing your agenda that debating this particular case. I notice you are no longer trying to say it is not KILLING which in every which way it is. Makes it sound icky eh. So this is about money? What I want to say is not for GD, so it will be left unsaid. But I must say this, your argument is so vile, that only someone that has money has a right to be kept alive is so sick it deserves its own brand of sickness.
And on that note, I find it best to not respond to your repeated attempts to make this a Schiavo debate.
There are no doctors who have changed the diagnosis.
What agenda is that?
Yes I am. It’s not killing. Calling it killing is a lie.
[quoet]Makes it sound icky eh.
[/quote]
No, it’s just not accurate.
As far as the state is concerned, yes.
That isn’t what I said. I’m saying that, in the absence of any other guardian, the state had to make a practical decision about whether it was worth the expenditure to keep a vegetable alive. Since this person has no chance of recovery, it made the decision to ask for life support to be discontinued, Discontinuing life support IS NOT KILLING.