# Are pets slaves? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388 "2016-07-20T03:07:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/21 "2016-07-20T04:42:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t have to read past the first paragraph of the second article to ignore it. I didn’t have to read past the title actually, but wasted a few seconds continuing. Truth is not served encrusted with poison. > > Your articles are nonsense. Make a case for the equivalency of pet ownership and slavery yourself or counter the arguments presented that state otherwise. Isn’t what you mentioned before placing humans in a position of superiority? What gives use the right to decide what is better or worse for animals? I mean we do deny their will to go outside sometimes and do certain things. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/22 "2016-07-20T04:50:17Z")
I set out food and water for my dog daily. I hold the door open for him so he can go in and out. Last week I had a groomer come to my home and bathe and brush him and trim his nails. I regularly go out in the yard and pick up his shit. Which one is the slave, again? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/23 "2016-07-20T04:59:31Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Isn’t what you mentioned before placing humans in a position of superiority? What gives use the right to decide what is better or worse for animals? I mean we do deny their will to go outside sometimes and do certain things. In my opinion your articles commit the fallacy of treating animals as four legged humans. They are not. If you want to extend the concept of personal freedom to animals, because they are living beings too, there is no good reason to not extend it to plants as well, is there? So basically all the plants we grow are slaves as well, because we do not allow them to grow were they want, cut them back if they do and generally subjugate them to our will? No, they are not, because they are plants, not humans. Neither are your pets. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/24 "2016-07-20T05:01:52Z")
I read both articles, and now I want those two minutes of my life back. They could have been better spent cleaning my slave’s litter box. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/25 "2016-07-20T05:09:30Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > In my opinion your articles commit the fallacy of treating animals as four legged humans. They are not. If you want to extend the concept of personal freedom to animals, because they are living beings too, there is no good reason to not extend it to plants as well, is there? So basically all the plants we grow are slaves as well, because we do not allow them to grow were they want, cut them back if they do and generally subjugate them to our will? No, they are not, because they are plants, not humans. Neither are your pets. But isnt that still arguing from people being the dominant species on the planet and having the right to do such things? I wouldn’t say plants are the same since they don’t feel pain and don’t have the brain functions animals do. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/26 "2016-07-20T05:22:14Z")
You’d have an easier time arguing pets are prisoners. There’s no forced servitude for pets (unlike some species of lifestock - and not even most of those). And even when arguing they are prisoners, the analogy falls short in many ways. ETA: I suppose you could make the case that service animals are the closest pet equivalents to slaves, but do you really want to go there? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/27 "2016-07-20T05:28:23Z")
Also, the same arguments (which aren’t that good in the first place), make children the literal slaves of their parents. That sort of argument has been tried and found wanting. Applying it to pets doesn’t make it any stronger. ETA: This point was already made above (and not addressed). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/28 "2016-07-20T05:35:21Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I do notice how they try to liken them to humans, even though it seems to me like they might have a different way of perceiving it than we do. To us it is slavery. But I don’t know about them. > what about the second article? The second article was even more retarded than the first. Yet again, as others have asked, have you ever had a cat? Anyone who has can tell that if there’s a slave, it ain’t the cat. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/29 "2016-07-20T05:38:21Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But isnt that still arguing from people being the dominant species on the planet and having the right to do such things? I wouldn’t say plants are the same since they don’t feel pain and don’t have the brain functions animals do. It is not so much that they are the \*dominant \*species, but that they are \*my \*species that my first and foremost responsibility goes to. Note that you, to an extent, are arguing from a similar angle: You want to extend less rights to plants, because they are less similar to us. Isn’t that arbitrary? What does the capacity to experience pain have to do with being given the right to enjoy freedom? I do not think a cat can grasp the concept of freedom any more than a tree can. Your thinking is as human-centered as mine. The difference is that I think human rights are for humans, while you choose to draw the line somewhere between your pets and a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/30 "2016-07-20T05:39:01Z")
Maybe if you redefine “slave”. The formal definition of slavery I’ve been given is: > [@](#): > > A relationship in which one person controls another person using violence or the threat of violence, exploits them economically, and pays them nothing Pets aren’t generally exploited economically, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/31 "2016-07-20T06:32:52Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But isnt that still arguing from people being the dominant species on the planet and having the right to do such things? I wouldn’t say plants are the same since they don’t feel pain and don’t have the brain functions animals do. Well, if you can do special pleading, so can I. Animals can’t be free, because they don’t have the cognitive power to predict the outcome of their own actions. Only humans have this ability. We don’t let little children vote or drive automobiles or shoot guns, because they, too, lack the ability to comprehend the burden of responsibility. Animals get by reasonably well in the wild, but that is very different from “freedom.” The wild rabbit lives his life in terror of being caught by the coyote. The rabbit is not enjoying “liberty” in any philosophical sense. What, exactly, are you proposing? How would you change the world? What legal reforms do you suggest we adopt? ETA: Let me guess… You recently saw Zootopia, and thought it was a documentary? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/32 "2016-07-20T06:35:01Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Maybe if you redefine “slave”. The formal definition of slavery I’ve been given is: > > Pets aren’t generally exploited economically, are they? depends on if you count puppy breeding … or dog fighting but the 4 mistresses of this house haven’t caught a rodent in years costs me 40 or more dollars in food and about the same in litter in a month and claim every flat surfaces in the house as theirs … ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/33 "2016-07-20T07:01:09Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > It is not so much that they are the \*dominant \*species, but that they are \*my \*species that my first and foremost responsibility goes to. > Note that you, to an extent, are arguing from a similar angle: You want to extend less rights to plants, because they are less similar to us. Isn’t that arbitrary? What does the capacity to experience pain have to do with being given the right to enjoy freedom? I do not think a cat can grasp the concept of freedom any more than a tree can. Your thinking is as human-centered as mine. The difference is that I think human rights are for humans, while you choose to draw the line somewhere between your pets and a tree. But how do we know they can’t grasp freedom. I’m pretty sure animals know the difference between being in and it of a cage (at least I think so). Also if you were to chain a dog to a post it would know the difference between when it’s there and when you release it. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/34 "2016-07-20T07:12:13Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But how do we know they can’t grasp freedom. I’m pretty sure animals know the difference between being in and it of a cage (at least I think so). Also if you were to chain a dog to a post it would know the difference between when it’s there and when you release it. True. But I am sure you will agree that freedom is a more complex concept than that, right? You said earlier that plants don’t feel pain. But a tree does notice when its branches are cut off. You said that, because pain is a more complex concept than that, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/35 "2016-07-20T07:36:30Z")
Machinaforce, if you go and do some reading about the likely methods by which dogs and cats were originally domesticated (over 20,000 years ago for dogs), it’s rather likely that they chose us, rather than us forcibly domesticating them. Packs of Humans were good hunters and usually had meat scraps left over. Grey wolves would follow humans who were hunting to scavenge the left overs. The wolves most likely to be friendly and helpful in hunting were kept and bred more offspring, which eventually became domestic dogs. The ones who didn’t care for humans, or were too aggressive were driven away or stayed away and live on as grey wolves. You can say, and some do say that humans and dogs have a symbotic relationship as species and that the domestication of dogs was crucial in the arise of civilization. Similarly with feral cats hanging around granaries in Ancient Egypt, it was a symbiotic relationship that both benefited from, the cats got plenty of food from the mice trying to eat the grain, the humans got the mice taken care of by an animal that doesn’t eat grain. Both species are now so throughly domesticated that their position living with humans is entirely natural for them. You can possibly make an argument that keeping a wild animal that’s never been domesticated is equivalent to slavery, lets say a marmoset. But for cats and dogs, nope no way. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/36 "2016-07-20T08:44:56Z")
I had a little mate (cat) went where she wanted when she wanted in her own time, when I was painting, sketching or working in the garden she was at my shoulder supervising and demanding belly rubs or demanding treats when I was preparing meat Definitely not a slave My neighbour thickhead small … dominated by his wife has a large ferocious looking mongrel with the saddest face he drags every where trying to look the hard man and is to quick to whip the dog for no reason. I do not know who will get him first the wife or the dog. Definitely a slave. Working dogs are in their element they are pack animals and need a role to play, if they are out with a farmer herding sheep or cattle you see happy dogs, dogs at airports sniffing out drugs again Happy dogs. Yes a small number of pets are abused and enslaved compared to those who are over indulged. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/37 "2016-07-20T09:09:07Z")
OK yeah I read the first article so I want to add to my reply. I live in Bangkok and there is no government body that rounds up stray cats and dogs here. The strays are not living idyllic lives “hurting no one” as the author claims. Most of them have perpetual running sores, parasites, mange and other health issues. The ones that get taken in by shelters and adopted are the lucky ones. There is two great charities here, Paws Bangkok and Soi Dog that do this work, and I fully support what they do. An indoor cat is not suffering because it’s not let outside, usually there is good reasons for doing that, over here, it’s usually because if let outside it would get in fights with stray cats or dogs and come away badly injured. In my particular case I live in a reasonably sheltered area thats partially enclosed but has open gates onto the street. I adopted a big tom cat who can look after himself, I do let him out and he’s completely free to walk away anytime he wants, and sometimes he disappears for a few days. But he always come back. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/38 "2016-07-20T09:20:24Z")
If A = B, B = A. So you are saying that holding slaves is no worse than having pets. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/39 "2016-07-20T09:29:00Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > If A = B, B = A. > So you are saying that holding slaves is no worse than having pets. In its essence that is his point. But while I disagree with him, it seems obvious that to him both are really bad. So it would not be fair to chide him for making light of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/40 "2016-07-20T09:50:14Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > In its essence that is his point. But while I disagree with him, it seems obvious that to him both are really bad. So it would not be fair to chide him for making light of slavery. I think he _is_ making light of slavery. At least a certain type of slaves. Isn’t he equating a life in the cotton fields or the salt mines with a cat not being allowed outside every time it wants to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388.md?page=3)