# Are pets slaves? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388 "2016-07-20T03:07:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/81 "2016-07-20T19:30:53Z")
Our cat has always been allowed outside; in our neighborhood, such indoor/outdoor cats are the norm. In fact, in some cases they change owners, if they don’t like their living situation. We had a cat that did that. Our neighbors split up with an acrimonious divorce and then moved out, basically abandoning their cat. We already had a cat, but we took in the neighbors’ cat, because it had no place to stay. Unfortunately, the cat wasn’t used to living in the same house as another cat, and didn’t like it; so it started begging to be let in by another neighbor - successfully. The other neighbor asked if we were okay with that (we were). All of that is sorta incompatible with “slavery”. 😉 The cats pretty clearly decide where they live, they are not coerced into staying, and sometimes they don’t stay. It is true they can’t open doors, not having the height and hands for that, but they go out and come in pretty well as they like. ---
**Author:** ![JcWoman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jcwoman/32/2889_2.png) [@JcWoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JcWoman)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/82 "2016-07-20T19:34:49Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > The second article in the OP put forth the idea that pets, \* like children, \* are brutalized and enslaved. > > - Humans enslave and brutalize animals for the same reasons they enslave and brutalize every child, as emotional catharsis, to gain a victim for use as a Poison Container, and to try to extract from others, the things they need but are too broken and destroyed to create and nurture within themselves. \* > > Which is nuts. Taking care of a child or a pet is not slavery. I’m reading an interesting book written by a neuroscientist called How Dogs Love Us. He became interested in what dogs really feel for humans, and approached the idea from the angle of fMRI to try and capture the canine brain in action. The beginning, where I am in the book currently, deals with the development of the Dog Project and how to train a dog to put up with an MRI machine. And it explores the nature of the dog/human relationship from his side as well. > > It’s interesting. I would not call a memoir of a slave owner, though. Your sources may disagree. I think the second article is really explaining animal abuse, not pet-keeping. The italicised part is true in the situations where people abuse the animals they keep. But that’s not a normal pet-keeping situation any more than abusing your children is normal parenthood. I agree with you, that the article is nuts if they’re trying to say these are the same. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/83 "2016-07-20T19:52:40Z")
So slavery only applies to humans? Isn’t that changing the definition of the term. I thought slavery was a situation where one is within the will and power of another. But I guess the subject of consent is a good argument point. Slaves don’t usually give consent to be honest, and you can’t really tell how an animal would give that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/84 "2016-07-20T20:02:19Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > So slavery only applies to humans? Isn’t that changing the definition of the term. No, that’s the established definition of the term. You (and others) have tried to change it by extending it to animals. (Not that the “argument from the dictionary” is going to carry any weight here. We redefine the meanings of terms all the time. Some people actually tried to oppose same-sex marriage because “it changes the meaning of the word.” Big deal!) > [@](#): > > I thought slavery was a situation where one is within the will and power of another. As noted above, that makes the typical American workplace a place of slavery, because my boss tells me what I have to do. You need a slightly more explicit definition. You’ve chosen to ignore a ton of responses here, so I’ll only ask once more then wander off: what, exactly, do you propose to right this wrong? Do you demand that all animals be set free? Do you want pet-owners prosecuted for wrongful imprisonment? Do you want pet-store managers to be imprisoned? What would you suggest be done with the millions of pets? Just let them go out in a forest somewhere? They’d die: you do know that, don’t you? Fido and Aeneas are not capable of hunting for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/85 "2016-07-20T20:05:18Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > For starters, they have been selectively bred and conditioned over time by humans to adopt traits that are more pleasing to humans. This is a level of which makes the slavery argument more plausible. That’s actually a huge difference between how we treat pets, and how slaves are treated. Even in the most violent and cruel implementations of slavery, there was never any sort of forced breeding programs\* like we routinely use on domesticated livestock and working animals. \*(Lots of rape, sure, but that’s not the same thing.) > [@](#): > > It really appeals to emotion to say that they are members of the family, and I agree that I feel that my animals are members of the family, but they’re also slaves, like it or not. They can be both, and many slaves even in some of the more generally oppressive eras, were treated well, enjoyed what they did, and were treated as members of the family as well. None of these gloss over that they were slaves, though. Slavery at its base is really a question of consent and freedom. Right. Which is why it doesn’t make any sense to talk about pets as slaves, because pets do not have a concept of “consent.” One problem you have here with trying to draw a moral equivalency between owning a pet and keeping a slave, is that once you start judging animals by the consent standard of ethics, you pretty much have to conclude that most animals are fucking monsters. I’ve never seen a dog ask for consent before it mounted another dog (or cat, or person’s leg) and started humping. If animals are slaves because they didn’t give consent for their captivity, then most dogs are rapists for never asking for consent before they try to fuck something. And let’s not even get started on what “consent” means when it comes to a cat killing a bird. > [@](#): > > Think of it this way: > > My animals eat what I allow them to. They have no choice. If they do manage to get what I don’t want them to, I take measures to prevent them from doing so again. > > The animal’s healthcare, general health and, frankly, whether they live or die is very much in my hands. > > My animals can’t leave the house without my allowing them to - if they would manage to “escape”, I would take measures to return them - and, if a person found them, they would be returned to me and are, generally, considered as being my property in terms of the law. > > I’m legally responsible for their actions. The same is true for children. Are children slaves? > [@](#): > > We can argue the “but they don’t do work” approach - but that depends on what you consider about what “work” is. Why do people own pets? Generally to fulfill a psychological need for companionship and emotional stability. They do work, it may not be physical labor, but they (more or less) provide a service. Those that don’t own them for the companionship aspect (and even many of those that do) - own them to fulfill much more standard work-like tasks, seeing-eye dogs, hunting dogs, so on and so forth. The animals that don’t fulfill those typically have even less freedom (fish, many types of birds, etc.). The pets that you don’t generally form psychological bonds with usually become the equivalents of artwork and showpieces, really. The work argument is irrelevant. Can an animal articulate a demand for freedom or an argument against its own captivity? When they can do that, then we have a basis for this discussion. If the animals aren’t complaining about being pets, then I’m not going to worry about it. > [@](#): > > We can hash the argument of whether or not it’s beneficial for the pet - but I think that’s honestly a moot point. I could make a very good argument why enslaving some people could be beneficial for them, but that’s not what’s wrong with slavery. Actually, you can’t. There is no good argument for enslaving humans. This is another of the central reasons why your thesis here fails. > [@](#): > > The one valid point to the argument, as I’ve stated in other threads, is that if we disqualify pets from the possibility of being slaves because they are not capable of giving or removing consent, I can at the very least understand that argument and agree that there is a grey area on that grounds. > > But I think that people don’t consider pets as slaves because of the negative connotations that we’ve been conditioned to conjure because of some instances of human slavery without realizing that is an example of slavery, not that it’s specifically what slavery is. But another good movie quote is “Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.” - essentially getting at that, just because say they’re not slaves because you don’t want to think of it that way because you equivocate something with slavery other than what slavery actually is, doesn’t mean they’re not slaves. People don’t like the slavery argument not because it equates animals with humans, but because it cheapens and trivializes the plight of slaves, both contemporary and historical. When you try to argue that there are material similarities between [this](http://www.superhdfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Cute-puppy-with-child.jpg) and [this](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Cicatrices_de_flagellation_sur_un_esclave.jpg), most rational people will dismiss you out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/86 "2016-07-20T20:37:18Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I think you guys are missing the point of the reply I had in my post, that ultimately the animals are breed with traits we want and can’t surivive on their own. That everything they have is ultimately based on what we decide to give them. They eat what we allow them and go out when we say so. Their far is pretty much in our hands. How is that not slavery? Because dogs & cats lack the intellectual capacity to appreciate the human concept of freedom, or tomourn its loss. In the case of dogs, the master-pet relatisonship takes advantge of canine psychology; a pet dog sees its human as the alpha of its pack. In the case of cats, they seem to be opportunistically exploiting our affection of them topayment for whichz their own advantage. We supplement their food and shelter and pay for their doctoring, in payment for which they do nothing; frequently they come and leave as they please. Equating pet ownership with slavery is tremendously insulting. It’s like someone who plays CALL OF DUTY calling himself a combat veteran. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/87 "2016-07-20T20:38:12Z")
> **[Definition of slave | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/slave)** > > Slave definition, a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another and forced to provide unpaid labor. See more. The dictionary term seems like it could apply in the case of animals. I mean they are subject to us. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/88 "2016-07-20T20:40:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No, that’s the established definition of the term. You (and others) have tried to change it by extending it to animals. > > (Not that the “argument from the dictionary” is going to carry any weight here. We redefine the meanings of terms all the time. Some people actually tried to oppose same-sex marriage because “it changes the meaning of the word.” Big deal!) > > As noted above, that makes the typical American workplace a place of slavery, because my boss tells me what I have to do. You need a slightly more explicit definition. > > You’ve chosen to ignore a ton of responses here, so I’ll only ask once more then wander off: what, exactly, do you propose to right this wrong? Do you demand that all animals be set free? Do you want pet-owners prosecuted for wrongful imprisonment? Do you want pet-store managers to be imprisoned? > > What would you suggest be done with the millions of pets? Just let them go out in a forest somewhere? They’d die: you do know that, don’t you? Fido and Aeneas are not capable of hunting for themselves. I know that. But I’m just trying to get a grip on the whole thing. I mean on the one hand their care is solely upon us. Without us they would surely dies. They are within or power, so it seems like slavery. On the other hand there is the matter of defining slavery, which is usually based on consent, which is a grey area with animals. Maybe it’s because slavery carries such a heavy emotional baggage with it that I have a problem. But from what I have read, it doesn’t have to be abusive to be slavery. The dictionary doesn’t define it that way ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/89 "2016-07-20T20:45:22Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > [SLAVE Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/slave) > > The dictionary term seems like it could apply in the case of animals. I mean they are subject to us. You are ignoring the key word in the pertient meanings: “person.” Dogs, cats, hamsters, gerbils, rats, mice, pigs, snakes, and other non-human animals commonly kept as pets are not persons, because they are not human. If you believe the penumbra of personhood should be extended to non-human animal, then you must also believe that a dog that kills a rat has committed murder and should be prosecuted. Do you? If not, why not? Those are not rhetorical questions. Please answer them. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/90 "2016-07-20T20:52:37Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I know that. But I’m just trying to get a grip on the whole thing. I mean on the one hand their care is solely upon us. Without us they would surely dies. They are within or power, so it seems like slavery. Why do you make that leap to slavery? Look at your own statement, would human slaves surely die if freed? It’s been said over and over again, animals are not people, every time you make that equivalency you run off course. If you think all animals should run free to try to survive on their own then provide a reason for that and stop trying to associate their current condition with slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/91 "2016-07-20T21:02:36Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I know that. But I’m just trying to get a grip on the whole thing. I mean on the one hand their care is solely upon us. Without us they would surely dies. They are within or power, so it seems like slavery. > > On the other hand there is the matter of defining slavery, which is usually based on consent, which is a grey area with animals. > > Maybe it’s because slavery carries such a heavy emotional baggage with it that I have a problem. But from what I have read, it doesn’t have to be abusive to be slavery. The dictionary doesn’t define it that way **Machinaforce** , may I ask where you draw the distinction between slavery and simple property ownership? From your posts I honestly cannot tell. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/92 "2016-07-20T21:11:52Z")
I raise birds for meat and eggs. They are well, not very smart and would die without constant human attention. Calling them slaves is ridiculous; dependents, yes. The ethics of deliberately breeding such an animal is a different discussion. Most dogs fall into this area-they simply cannot survive on their own and they also don’t want to survive on their own. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/93 "2016-07-20T21:41:50Z")
> [@JcWoman](#): > > I think the second article is really explaining animal abuse, not pet-keeping. The italicised part is true in the situations where people abuse the animals they keep. But that’s not a normal pet-keeping situation any more than abusing your children is normal parenthood. I agree with you, that the article is nuts if they’re trying to say these are the same. They are. The way I read that …“mind bomb”…from the… “Seer of Forbidden Truth” …is that **all** pet ownership is brutal slavery, not just in cases of abuse, and all child bearing is a form of child abuse. I think dude’s nuts. Read the article again. It is equating pet ownership with child rearing with slavary. \ ***All** animals kept as pets have been stolen from themselves and from nature itself, enslaved to an artificial state of existence within which they can never realize their potential , in the same way that **no human child is allowed to realize his potential** at genetic conception or at birth. \ You use your pets in order to extract an illusion of being loved, so that you can continue hating yourselves, the **exact same construct behind parenthood**. Your pet does not love you, your pet is your slave, your hostage, and your victim of terrorism. Your pet has been rendered dependent upon you. Your pet might act “happy” to see you, but this is because he has been experiencing terror and trauma at your absence, you are literally terrorizing your pet in order to delude yourself that you are loved and valued and important to an animal\* (My bolding added.) The author also has a habit of capitalizing Me when he/she refers it him/herself, and ending essays with the following tagline: \*You have just read something brilliant. You can comment on it here. All comments are screened prior to publication. \* Check out the author’s feelings on [mothers day](https://forbiddentruthblog.com/2015/05/10/mothers-day-a-celebration-of-child-genocide/) or check out the [terms and conditions](http://forbiddentruth.8k.com/index.html) of the manifesto. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/94 "2016-07-20T21:42:10Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > **Machinaforce** , may I ask where you draw the distinction between slavery and simple property ownership? From your posts I honestly cannot tell. I mean aren’t slaves property according to the dictionary definition? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/95 "2016-07-20T21:45:46Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I mean aren’t slaves property according to the dictionary definition? They are - but does that mean all property are slaves? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/96 "2016-07-20T22:07:28Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > They are - but does that mean all property are slaves? I fail to see the point of that statement. I meant inanimate objects can’t be slaves. Also what about how pets are kept confined to the house the whole time? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/97 "2016-07-20T22:17:40Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I fail to see the point of that statement. I meant inanimate objects can’t be slaves. Also what about how pets are kept confined to the house the whole time? The point is that you claim that plants and inanimate objects cannot be slaves but animals can - and yet you fail to give a compelling reason why. Every reason you \*have \*provided applies to plants and inanimate objects as well as to animals. Or would you say that they are not “kept confined to the house the whole time”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/98 "2016-07-20T22:21:59Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Check out the author’s feelings on [mothers day](https://forbiddentruthblog.com/2015/05/10/mothers-day-a-celebration-of-child-genocide/) or check out the [terms and conditions](http://forbiddentruth.8k.com/index.html) of the manifesto. From his piece on Mother’s Day: > [@](#): > > Why is mother’s day a holiday, decreed so by every human society on earth in the 21st century? Because it sanctifies the Sacred Family Unit, which is the single most valuable and effective weapon governments deploy, to successfully impose universal slavery upon all human beings. The family unit is the epicenter of human horror, it ensures that each and every generation of children is universally destroyed, exactly as every existing adult generation, those who lead and control the existing society and culture, were destroyed when they were children. So, yeah. Big time loon. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/99 "2016-07-20T22:49:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > From his piece on Mother’s Day: > > So, yeah. Big time loon. Yeah I figured as much. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388/100 "2016-07-20T22:50:39Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > The point is that you claim that plants and inanimate objects cannot be slaves but animals can - and yet you fail to give a compelling reason why. Every reason you \*have \*provided applies to plants and inanimate objects as well as to animals. Or would you say that they are not “kept confined to the house the whole time”? But they don’t have desires of their own or the brain functions that animals do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pets-slaves/760388.md?page=6)