# Are pianos having in excess of 88 keys extant? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960 "2003-05-28T05:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![I\_can\_t\_believe\_that\_s\_butter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@I\_can\_t\_believe\_that\_s\_butter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_can_t_believe_that_s_butter)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/1 "2003-05-28T05:26:26Z")
I’d like to know if anyone knows of the exsistence of pianos having in excess of 88 keys. I saw it cited in another thread that there are 64 and 72 key _keyboards_, which I happen to know well of. Along with this question, I’d like to ask if there is any music around that would require more than 88 keys? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/2 "2003-05-28T05:38:33Z")
[Transposing Pianos](http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199912/1999.12.09.08.html) ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/3 "2003-05-28T05:48:35Z")
I have seen a studio Boesendorfer (sp.?) with 92 keys – it went down to a low F. Don’t know if they’re still made. Never heard of any piano music requiring the extra keys, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/4 "2003-05-28T05:54:02Z")
Good news: Yes. Bad news: Only dogs or elephants can hear the extra notes. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/5 "2003-05-28T06:02:23Z")
**Zenster** : If they were loud enough, you could possibly _feel_ the notes. Recall that the instrument’s true name is pianoforte, or soft-loud. But I doubt Mozart called for much chest-thumping bass. After all, low-riders were in short supply at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/6 "2003-05-28T06:15:03Z")
It’s Bosendorfer with an umlaut over the first “o”. Model 225 has 92 keys. Model 290 has 97 keys – “the only concert grand in the world to have nine sub-bass notes, down to bottom C, giving it a full eight octave compass keyboard. These extra notes enable some compositions to be accurately performed, which were originally scored with lower notes, by composers such as Bartók, Debussy, Ravel and Busoni. Special construction features have a very positive influence on the overtones produced when the piano is played, and helps to create the maximum range of both power and volume, and allows the smallest subtle variations in sound to be heard, across the whole range of the piano.” ---
**Author:** ![MisterThyristor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@MisterThyristor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterThyristor)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/7 "2003-05-28T08:07:56Z")
Oscar Peterson was well-known in the Jazz world for his use of the Bösendorfer. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pianos-having-in-excess-of-88-keys-extant/177960/8 "2003-05-28T09:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*Good news: Yes. > > Bad news: Only dogs or elephants can hear the extra notes. \*\* **Warning: long, pedantic post ahead** Well, that wouldn’t be quite true. If we assume equal temperament, and a 440 Hz value for A4, then, the fundamental frequency for the lowest note of standard 88-key pianos is 27.5 Hz, whereas the highest note is 4186 Hz. The threshold of hearing for human beings is generally between 20 and 30 Hz in the lower range, and values of anywhere from 15,000 Hz to 20,000 are given for the upper range (there are great variations amongst individuals.) 27.5 Hz should be just borderline audible, especially if you consider that it’s easy to not notice the all too common electrical hum at 60 Hz. However, people can hear the lowest A note just fine and it sounds just as loud as the rest of the range. That is because the ‘A’ pitch that we hear isn’t the 27.5 Hz fundamental but the 27.5 Hz spacing between the harmonics, most of which are well within our optimal hearing range. By comparison, the highest C has the following harmonics (I’m forgetting about partial-stretching): 8,372 Hz 12,558 Hz 16,744 Hz 20,930 Hz That’s only two harmonics within common hearing range, which of course explains the very thin quality of the higher notes, as opposed to the middle register. To really leave the field of human perception, you’d have to add some two or three octaves above the highest note, and even then, the sound of the hammer would be plenty audible.