# Are plants ever deadly in minute doses? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588 "2010-06-09T22:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/21 "2010-06-11T00:39:02Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > Happy to do reseach for you. I won’t waste my time on you again. I’m sorry–I should’ve specifically exempted you from my grumpiness earlier. Some of your links were much more useful. I will point out, however, that you didn’t do my research for me; rather, you linked to documents I’d already examined in the previous thread, and none of the documents answered the OP’s question about documented cases. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/22 "2010-06-11T00:42:15Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > [Cerbera odollam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerbera_odollam), the suicide tree. Not the leaves, but the berries. See, this is not useful. It’s a link to an article about a poisonous plant. I know there are poisonous plants out there; I’ve even read a chapter about the history and toxicity of this specific one. My question isn’t, “Are some plants poisonous?” Rather, I’m asking about whether some plants are poisonous **in minute doses**. This article about suicide berries does not address dosage at all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/23 "2010-06-11T00:46:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I believe **WhyNot** has some stories to tell of near-lethal poisoning just from handling datura. > > EDIT: [Found the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=492962). The rest of the thread is probably relevant to this discussion, too. Thanks for the link! Sounds like **Whynot** is something of an expert in the topic, and posted this in that thread: > [@Whynot](#): > > That being said, I think it’s far more useful to educate kids how to detect probable toxins - bitter taste being the first giveaway, tingling or numbness on the tongue the second. Almond smells are probably best avoided until you know more. Known toxic plants in the area should be identified, of course, but I also hate to see people go overboard and scream at their kid not to taste the wood sorrel or dandelions because “that might be poisonous!!!” Most plants aren’t, and most of those that are have easy warning signs. The “easy warning signs” that references flavor and numbness seems to support what I suspect is true: that the reason nobody can find documented cases of poisonings from ingesting minute amounts of plants is that no plant (with, again, the exception of contact poison-bearing plants like poison ivy) causes serious illness or death in minute quantities. ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/24 "2010-06-11T01:13:21Z")
LHOD, I’ve studied medicinal plants for years, and haven’t personally heard of any poisonings from the nibble and spit taste test, nor have I heard of any from my teachers. So, that’s anectdotal, but coming from people who teach herbal knowledge in a serious and responsible manner. One of my good teachers, Will E., has taught edible and medicinal plannt courses for decades, and he starts his beginner classes with a careful lecture on Poison Hemlock, Conium maculatum, as the most dangerous plant to not even touch, and how to ID it, and differentiate from similar looking plants. He was a student of Hawk Littlejohn, who, IIRC, you knew as well here in NC. I looked around in a pretty deep google for documented cases, and couldn’t find any, either. Again, I’ve learned from really knowledgeable teachers, who don’t want anyone to die from contact with plants, and don’t know of any outstanding incidents told. If you want to research it a bit more, Doug Elliot is a master of edible plants and herbs, right down the road from you in Old Fort, NC. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/25 "2010-06-11T13:13:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If documented cases are the gold standard, however, the opposite end must be the crap standard, and that’s got to consist of folklore, urban legends, uncited Wikipedia claims (such as the one about aconite), and snarky one-offs that have little to do with the specific question in the OP. I’m disappointed that so many replies are so low quality; is this usual for GQ? Have you done a PubMed literature search? You will likely find a number of case reports but relatively little in the way of controlled studies. So what’s your interest here? Writing a short story or book? Planning on doing away with a roommate? You could always set up a video camera and test out those “urban legend” stories on yourself, starting out with very small doses of the most intriguing possibles. I can see the “LHOD Death Cam” quickly going viral, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/26 "2010-06-11T15:18:26Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Oleander: An oleander’s poison is so strong, in fact, that it can poison a person who simply eats the honey made by bees that have digested oleander nectar. So why don’t the bees drop dead before they get around to making the honey? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/27 "2010-06-11T21:32:32Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > So why don’t the bees drop dead before they get around to making the honey? Not poisonous to bees. Not all animals are susceptible to the same chemicals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/28 "2010-06-12T04:34:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Have you done a PubMed literature search? You will likely find a number of case reports but relatively little in the way of controlled studies. > > So what’s your interest here? Writing a short story or book? Planning on doing away with a roommate? Totally irrelevant. If this is the level of your contribution to GQ, refrain. > [@](#): > > You could always set up a video camera and test out those “urban legend” stories on yourself, starting out with very small doses of the most intriguing possibles. I can see the “LHOD Death Cam” quickly going viral, so to speak. Likewise. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/29 "2010-06-12T04:39:27Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Not poisonous to bees. Not all animals are susceptible to the same chemicals. This, on the other hand, is an absolutely accurate answer. Although I knew it already (thus the inadvisability of judging the toxicity of fungi and florae based on the eating habits of deer and squirrel, for example), it’s a perfectly legit answer to someone else’s perfectly legit question. **elelle** , very interesting response; thanks! FWIW, I only knew Littlejohn when I was a pre-teen myself; my memories of him are the vague memories of childhood, and I wouldn’t base anything (other than a very specific memory of the use of white pine needle tea as a remedy for the common cold) off such memories. Am I correct, however, in interpreting your response as suggesting that wildcrafters use the nibble-and-spit method as a semi-routine method of plant identification, and that therefore the lack of documented cases of poisonings from minute doses is significant (as opposed as being due to the dearth of ingestion of minute doses)? ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/30 "2010-06-12T23:57:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Am I correct, however, in interpreting your response as suggesting that wildcrafters use the nibble-and-spit method as a semi-routine method of plant identification, and that therefore the lack of documented cases of poisonings from minute doses is significant (as opposed as being due to the dearth of ingestion of minute doses)? You’re correct with that interpretation, yet it’s not quite complete in the way that teaching an Edible Plant class would progress for beginners. Everyone I’ve learned from stresses correct plant ID from the start, using good guidebooks for visual identification, and learning from an experienced teacher. No responsible teacher advocates tromping off into the woods and tasting plants willy-nilly at a beginning level. Most plants, of course, aren’t toxic, but damage can be done with the few that are. So, proper ID is stressed, learning the primary toxic offenders, and then teaching the safe and good edibles. I did find this [survival food site](http://web.archive.org/web/20071109233938/http://staff.washington.edu/gcthomas/psg/food.html), which has a strict guideline protocol for testing plants for edibility, very useful if you’re flying blind with no plant knowledge. Better to go through a lengthy process than be sorry for a misgustitation. I can speak for myself, having a good botanical ID encyclopedia of experience, that you can do a nibble/spit taste pretty reliably and determine whether or not a plant has toxic components without harm. But, that’s based on lots of experience. I haven’t heard of any stories of poisoning by that method, either in the herbal or horticultural circles, and , believe me, they would be told by fellow plant geeks as fascinating tales. I’m certainly open to be proven wrong, though, if anyone can come up with examples; that’s important knowledge. [This page](http://www.foraging.com/), from an edible food enthusiast site, is full of good links, as well as recommendations for plant ID guidebooks. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/31 "2010-06-13T05:45:06Z")
I was reading yesterday part of a survival in nature type book, written by Couplan, who is the main reference in France for books about eating wild plants, and who regularly talks about and organizes workshops about that, and he says about that topic (quickly translated from French): "Don’t go thinking that all poisonous plants would put an end to your life on Earth if you would happen to eat a pinch of them. If some of them get violently sick anyone who would eat some, even a little bit, most would only induce vomiting and colics – which is something that even excellent foods can produce if you abuse them. And some organisms are stronger than others. It’s not worth the risk to test yours though. Danger, even small, exists: that’s why it is indispensable to know precisely what you must not gather. “Vivre en pleine nature: Le guide de la survie douce”, François Couplan, p22 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/32 "2010-06-13T06:15:39Z")
> [@elelle](#): > > Poison Hemlock, Conium maculatum, as the most dangerous plant to not even touch, I’ve touched and manipulated hemlock as a kid (I knew it was highly poisonous, hence my interest in it) without adverse effect. I’m not going to advise people to do the same, of course, but I’m obviously doubtful that mere contact could result in harm. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/33 "2010-06-13T07:48:07Z")
Here is one where chewing a leaf and spitting it out could be considered most unwise. > **[Dendrocnide moroides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides)** > > Dendrocnide moroides, commonly known in Australia as the suicide plant, stinging tree, stinging bush, or gympie-gympie, is a plant in the nettle family Urticaceae found in rainforest areas of Malesia and Australia. It is notorious for its extremely painful and long-lasting sting. The common name gympie-gympie comes from the language of the Indigenous Gubbi Gubbi people of south-eastern Queensland. > D. moroides is a straggly perennial understory shrub, usually flowering and fruiting when less th... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/34 "2010-06-14T00:36:23Z")
> [@elelle](#): > > You’re correct with that interpretation, yet it’s not quite complete in the way that teaching an Edible Plant class would progress for beginners. Everyone I’ve learned from stresses correct plant ID from the start, using good guidebooks for visual identification, and learning from an experienced teacher. No responsible teacher advocates tromping off into the woods and tasting plants willy-nilly at a beginning level. Most plants, of course, aren’t toxic, but damage can be done with the few that are. Totally, and for disclosure, this is a matter of academic curiosity for me. I am a very, very amateur wildcrafter ( **very** ), and I’m pretty timid: I really don’t eat things unless I know what they are absolutely. Berries and mushrooms are the main things I eat. I’ve never gotten even slightly ill from any of my wildcrafting, with the exception of a couple nasty cases of poison ivy, and then it wasn’t due to misidentification so much as completely not noticing that stuff. > [@](#): > > So, proper ID is stressed, learning the primary toxic offenders, and then teaching the safe and good edibles. I did find this [survival food site](http://web.archive.org/web/20071109233938/http://staff.washington.edu/gcthomas/psg/food.html), which has a strict guideline protocol for testing plants for edibility, very useful if you’re flying blind with no plant knowledge. Better to go through a lengthy process than be sorry for a misgustitation. Very cool site! I’ve seen an abridged version of that (possibly in a SD column at some point? I can’t remember), but that one is much more detailed. > [@](#): > > I haven’t heard of any stories of poisoning by that method, either in the herbal or horticultural circles, and , believe me, they would be told by fellow plant geeks as fascinating tales. I’m certainly open to be proven wrong, though, if anyone can come up with examples; that’s important knowledge. Someone else suggested a pubmed search. Is anyone in the thread able to conduct one of these? I know the whole absence-of-evidence-isn’t-evidence-of-absence thing, but I’d be curious also if there really are no significant cases of the sorts of illnesses/fatalities I’m asking about. **Francis** , this is a good point, and I suppose I should extend my comment about poison ivy’s exceptionality to cover all contact poisons. I think there’s a tropical tree whose sprayed sap from a cut can cause nasty contact “burns,” and I’m guessing you wouldn’t want to get that in your mouth, either. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588/35 "2010-06-14T01:21:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I believe **WhyNot** has some stories to tell of near-lethal poisoning just from handling datura. > > EDIT: [Found the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=492962). The rest of the thread is probably relevant to this discussion, too. I was trying to stay out of this! 😉 First of all, I don’t think my teacher gave herself anything like a “near-lethal poisoning”. She just gave herself a hell of psychedelic trip, and that was from handling far more than “a nibble of a leaf, spit out”. Datura actually is ingested at more than minute amounts safely, and it will make you trip balls. But it takes far more than nibble-and-spit for even those effects, much less respiratory arrest. I agree with **elelle**. I have \*never \*heard of an herbalist or student killing themselves with the nibble and spit test. I would still recommend that people use a good guide book or teacher to learn the basics of plant ID, and I further recommend that everyone learn to identify the known toxic plants in their area, like poison ivy, oak and sumac. But having said that, even a nibble and spit of poison ivy won’t kill you. You might \*wish \*you were dead, but that’s a different matter entirely! 😃 I would not give the same advice outside North America. I just don’t know South American, Asian, African, Australian or even European plants well enough to know if that’s a good idea. And I know there are some bizarre exotics in rain forests I wouldn’t mess with without a shaman and an AED in reach. But there are very few, if any, plants deadly in minute doses in North America. Oh, and mushrooms also need not apply. Not because I know of any that are deadly in minute amounts, but because I just don’t know anything about them at all. They’re not in my materia medica. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-plants-ever-deadly-in-minute-doses/542588.md?page=1)