Are Politicians Ever Liars?

Sure, Mace, get to the heart of it why don’t you.

As for Allen, this is one of those times where, speaking as a journalist (and now owner of a newspaper!) you don’t even HAVE to go out of your way to bring hte candidiate down. He’s doing it himself.

Making the comment was unwise.

Making it in combination of speaking to a mostly white group while claiming it to be the ‘real America’ is astonishingly unwise.

Attempting to wish it away by claiming he said ‘mohawk’ in reference to the guys hair is INCREDIBLY unwise.

In short, media-wise, he’s spent a month attempting to right his ship while carving holes in the keel.

It’s an interesting race now. The smart money is still on Allen but it’s gone from ‘sure thing’ to ‘uh-oh’ in a hurry.

On the other hand, it’s awfully close (phonetically) to “macaque”, which is a racial slur often used by white supremacists. Hrm…

Noooooooooo, never!

It’s not just awful close, it’s the French word for “macaque”. Spanish, too, I think. That’s the whole point.

My OP was to state, not too explicitly, my contempt for politicians who do not fear any consequences from telling lies. Look at Allen as he tells us that he made up the word. There is no sign of shame. I bet that he is so conditioned to lying that he could pass a lie detector test when he says that he made up the word “macaca” from whole cloth. For him and for other politicians a lie is the truth. I am reminded of the comedic line–How do you know when a politician is lying? When his/her lips are moving. Is this a part and parcel of the Western style democracy that we are trying to ram down the throats of citizens of other countries? If so, no wonder they want no part of it.

Right. Because dictators are such moral upright men and would never utter an untruth.

I doubt this very much. Allen is lying and he knows he’s lying. He’s not lying for fun, he’s lying because he made a gaffe and he hoped a simple lie would calm the issue.

And he is paying the consequences, look at all the articles and op/eds and blog entries and message board threads about the issue. Before the gaffe he was essentially assured of victory, now he’s barely keeping his head above water. And once you get a reputation as a guy who lies then reporters tend to follow you around hoping to catch you in another lie. So a guy with a reputation as a liar gets exposed much more often than an average guy with no such reputation, even if they lie about the same amount.

And the contention that political lies are somehow symptomatic of western style democracy is just ludicrious. You didn’t realize that dictators and oligarchs and theocrats and tribal chiefs and kings and emperors lie?

Tell you what. Who do you think is more likely make unchallenged lies. A western style elected politician…or a guy who can have your head cut off if you annoy him?

Only when their mouths are open.

Who do you think is more likely make unchallenged lies. A western style elected politician…or a guy who can have your head cut off if you annoy him?
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A western style elected politician because he has to lie to remain in office.

Here’s an interesting story about Alphonso Jackson’s claim that he lied at a political rally. Jackson is President Bush’s Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.

My best guess is he DIDN’T lie, but he “admitted” the lie because if he had been telling the truth, he would have been admitting illegal actions. At a political rally he claimed he blocked a federal contract with a company that was affiliated with a political enemy of the White House. When an investigation started, he backpedaled real quick,

The investigation by HUD’s Inspector General found that Jackson had in fact on numerous occasions attempted to convince his staff to consider party affiliation when considering contracts, which is illegal. But there was no evidence that his staff did what he asked, and no inappropriate actions were taken in regard to contracts. According to Jackson, this means the report exonerates him, and the White House is backing him up. Shitheads.

Politicians are delighted to admit to lying if to claim it is the truth makes it even worse.

I disagree. Look at Kim Jong Il. His regime is built upon the premise that the suffering of the rest of the world makes North Korea look like paradise. Plus, he gets several holes-in-one in every round of golf he plays.

A dictator has several reasons to lie. First, while he doesn’t need to vote of his people, he does need their submission. He doesn’t want to deal with a constant state of insurrection. He needs, as Machiavelli advised, to be loved and feared. Sometimes that means lying. Secondly, he’ll get away with it. If Sen. Allen was a dictator, his macaca gaffe would never have been reported. There’s no free press or viable political opposition to investigate and expose lies. Finally, and most importantly, the stakes are much higher. If Allen is believed, he gets a job in the Senate, powerful but constrained by the Constitution and the rest of Congress and the president. If he isn’t, he’s unemployed, but his fame and connections will get him a good paying job in short order. Retirement plan for a dictator is a firing squad.

Politicians lie?

Absolutely not, never in this world, not a cat in hells chance.

Oy vey?!!

Allen doesn’t need many people to believe him. Half of people won’t vote at all, roughly half of the rest weren’t going to vote for him anyway, and a big chunk of the rest would vote GOP no matter what he says.

If one person out of ten buys it, then a lot of the damage is repaired.

If we define ‘lying’ as not being completely open about your intentions, then I don’t see how you can be a politician without lying.

Some interests are shared – just about everybody wants a prosperous economy, and protection from terrorism.

But on, say, energy prices, it’s a little more complicated. My home state of West Virginia had a long history of seeing its coal-heavy economy improve when energy costs were high, which often coincided with recessions in the rest of the country.

A politician needing the votes of two such competing factions sometimes survives via a delicate dance around the conflict.

E.g.: A Republican candidate is running for office in a highly-unionized region. Because Republicans have not historically had the best relations with organized labor, he makes vague promises to support labor. He wins the election, and after taking office, does some things that aren’t all that good for labor.

A pro-union person who voted for the politician would likely call him a liar.

But an anti-union person would be more inclined to chuckle, “Heh, heh – good one, buddy”, and defend the pol’s actions by pointing out that he never promised not to commit these specific actions.

When is a politician lying?

The answer often depends on whether you think the politician is lying to you, or to someone whose interests oppose yours.

(Incidentally, I don’t mean to pick on Republicans. My example was based loosely on discussions I heard in the wake of Ronald Reagan’s firing the striking PATCO air traffic controllers. I’m sure there are instances of Democrats doing the same thing, say, when running for office in staunchly pro-gun regions).

If you’re relating this to Iraq, it’s a terrible stretch. I am pretty sure that they are not rejecting democracy - if you want to say that’s what they’re doing - because politicians lie. They can do that in non-Democratic governments, too.

Are you saying that you in fact don’t eat everything?
::illusion shatters

If the pope takes a dump in the woods and there are no bears around, does it make a sound? Or a smell, for that matter?