# Are politics truly a left-right linear line, or something else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903 "2011-07-05T15:26:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/21 "2011-07-06T18:01:08Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > Was it this? [http://www.republicanliberty.org/libdex/index.htm](http://www.republicanliberty.org/libdex/index.htm) > > There was certainly more variation left to right. I couldn’t find the actual graph for any year, only tables of individual congresspersons. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/22 "2011-07-06T19:58:58Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > According to the chart I am a statist. I agree. out of curiosity, then, why are you “New Deal Democrat?” You do realize that statists or authoritarians include Hitler, Stalin, and their like, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/23 "2011-07-06T20:03:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s not that Nazis didn’t believe in being rational; merely that they did not feel rationalism would result in perfection of the human condition. Not that I would promote Nazism but maybe they were right. Cecil has been fighting ignorance since 1973 and the unwashed masses seem to be winning. I’m just kidding. The failure of a majority does not mean that the thing they failed to do is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/24 "2011-07-06T21:57:35Z")
> [@](#): > > [vague hand-wave]I think this has been done, at least for members of Congress (which has the advantage that they have measurable preferences related to specific bills), and the result was that (about, memory is vague and I have no idea how to google this) 90% of the variations could be mapped on a left-to-right axis. Adding a second dimension dealt with about 5% of the remaining idiosyncracies. I don’t remember if they discussed how many dimensions they needed to reach 99 or 100%. I’m not sure that elected officials are the best sample to use, since they get elected on the back of support from their party, and the party is naturally going to tend to mostly support people who align closely with their own platform. Someone who holds a mixture of “left” and “right” political views is going to have a hard time getting elected in either party. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/25 "2011-07-07T00:44:22Z")
> [@David42](#): > > The Pournelle chart is interesting, but I always failed to understand how Communism is rational but nazism is not, at least in its results with real life examples. Communism, rational or not, is **rationalistic,** it believes in the power of reason to improve/perfect human life. Nazism is romantic, emotional, and it’s all about the will. Bertrand Russell drew a line of intellectual descent from Voltaire to Stalin and another from Rousseau to Hitler. Those are the ideological differences, anyway; the practical ones, what it was like to actually live under the one vs. the other, etc., different discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/26 "2011-07-07T01:03:51Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > According to the chart I am a statist. I agree. Well shit it says I am a statist, with conservative tendencies. WTF, I am about the most liberal person I know. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/27 "2011-07-07T04:39:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I suppose one could take a large survey of people to populate such a model, and then find the eigenvectors of the resulting distribution. If one were to do so in any country with a two-party system, I expect that the highest-weight eigenvector would correspond to the difference between the two parties. The [Pew political typology (warning\* - pdf)](http://people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/Beyond-Red-vs-Blue-The-Political-Typology.pdf) which was discussed in [a recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607706) did a cluster analysis of Americans’ political views. It probably did not use Principle Component Analysis, but very rough estimates of the eigenvectors (“eigen-voters” 🆒 ) could be reverse-engineered from the statistics it presents. Two caveats: 1. Normalization is required for eigen-analysis; i.e. when “comparing apples and oranges” one must agree on the weights. This will be troublesome as there is a big difference in opinion on how important some issues, e.g. gay marriage, should be in national politics. 2. The comment about difference between two parties matching the first component assumes that platforms reflect voter opinion. A counterexample would be free trade: both parties support it, but voters are more protectionistic. (\* BTW, above I’ve imitated others and dutifully warned about a pdf file. But I’ve no idea why we warn about pdf’s here.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/28 "2011-07-07T04:44:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well shit it says I am a statist, with conservative tendencies. WTF, I am about the most liberal person I know. No contradiction: **NDD** is a Texas statist and you’re a Massachusetts statist! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/29 "2011-07-07T15:40:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well shit it says I am a statist, with conservative tendencies. WTF, I am about the most liberal person I know. In my experience many people read the questions wrong. When they are utterly surprised at the results I have helped them be sure they answered the questions correctly. I would do it over and be sure you haven’t missed a word or underemphaized it in the question. But if you are absolutely sure you understood the questions properly, maybe you’re not as liberal as you thought. Either that or everyone around you is hyper-conservative ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/30 "2011-07-07T15:49:27Z")
I have long pretty much figured that the Republicans and Democrats are essentially one party–Republicrats, I call them. I acknowledge that what they say is different, but in the results they don’t seem to differ too much. No matter which party has been in power, the government has grown and our rights have shrunk. I think that the linear model is meant to deceive the public that there is nothing available other than the one party system in order to keep themselves in power and continue the show that something different is available than what we have received. It’s business as usual with both. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/31 "2011-07-07T16:40:23Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I have long pretty much figured that the Republicans and Democrats are essentially one party–Republicrats, I call them. Don’t worry, the Democans will take 'em **next** year! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/32 "2011-07-07T16:51:41Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I think that the linear model is meant to . . . Hey, nobody this side of the Atlantic invented the thing, and it was only ever “meant to” provide people with a rough-and-ready coordinate system to make some sense of a system which, previously, was as simple as one man’s mind (and that of Louis XVI was very simple indeed). ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/33 "2011-07-07T16:57:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hey, nobody this side of the Atlantic invented the thing, and it was only ever “meant to” provide people with a rough-and-ready coordinate system to make some sense of a system which, previously, was as simple as one man’s mind (and that of Louis XVI was very simple indeed). You might be entirely correct. But I didn’t say it had to be invented here. The other side of the atlantic might deceive when it comes to politics too. And saying linear left right is a poor model does not claim that there isn’t a worse model, of course. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/34 "2011-07-07T16:58:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t worry, the Democans will take 'em **next** year! Good thing, I’m sick of Republicrats! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/35 "2011-07-07T17:10:51Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Normalization is required for eigen-analysis; i.e. when “comparing apples and oranges” one must agree on the weights. This will be troublesome as there is a big difference in opinion on how important some issues, e.g. gay marriage, should be in national politics. This is true, and is something I was trying to figure out myself. I suppose that one approach would be to have _two_ dimensions for each issue: One for how one feels about an issue, and another for how important one considers that issue. Sort of like intensity and hue or saturation in color space. Then normalize each view-axis such that the spread of view is about the same for each one, and somehow use the priority-axes in weighting for the principle-vector analysis. But then, I’m not a statistician, and there are almost certainly subtleties I’m still overlooking or glossing over. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/36 "2011-07-07T17:37:06Z")
As always, XKCD has the perfect comic for this thread: [xkcd: Nolan Chart](http://www.xkcd.com/868/) Seriously, though, I think that politics is more complicated than a single Left-Right axis, but I also think that more than a say 2-3 axes would result in a lot of complication without really adding any meaningful description. You’re always going to have a handful of individuals who, for whatever reason, don’t follow a particular trend, but adding a lot of extra axes to handle special cases isn’t worth it. To that end, I kind of like the idea of doing a poll, plotting everything, and taking Eigen vectors, but it’s difficult to know what to make of that without actually seeing the results. Would there be a clear small number of vectors that are the primary influences or will there be be a steady drop off? Will vectors end up on trends that don’t make a whole lot of intuitive sense? I’d love to see that kind of data and apply some information theory techniques to it and see what we get. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/37 "2011-07-07T19:58:38Z")
I can remember being in grade school (maybe junior high) and asking a question that was seen as absolutely absurd: If the Soviets were socialist and the Nazis were socialist, why was the teacher putting them at different ends of the political spectrum? Well, hum hum, cough cough, the political spectrum is circular, you see, so the far-left is the same as the far-right. I thought it was bullshit then, I think it’s bullshit now. Part of the trick in coming up with a representative diagram of political thought is in being honest and objective about it (and not relying on what some teacher said). There was a very interesting segment (whether you agree with it or not) on Soviet/Nazi socialism and how it’s taught in school in Jonah Goldberg’s book, Liberal Fascism. As has been stated before, it’s tough to come up with cookie-cutter answers when there are degrees to and separate forms of the two ends of the classic right-left model. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/38 "2011-07-07T23:14:19Z")
That’s like asking “If the grass is green and the sky is green, why do we put them on opposite sides of a picture?”. The Nazis weren’t socialist. Yes, yes, the origin of their name was “National Socialist”, but none of their policies resembled anything that could be accurately described as socialist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/39 "2011-07-08T00:28:38Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > I can remember being in grade school (maybe junior high) and asking a question that was seen as absolutely absurd: If the Soviets were socialist and the Nazis were socialist . . . [Political economy of Nazi Germany:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#Political_economy_of_Nazi_Germany) > [@](#): > > Early in his political career, Adolf Hitler regarded economic issues as relatively unimportant. In 1922, Hitler proclaimed that “world history teaches us that no people has become great through its economy but that a people can very well perish thereby”, and later concluded that “the economy is something of secondary importance”.[4] Hitler and the Nazis held a very strong idealist conception of history, which held that human events are guided by small numbers of exceptional individuals following a higher ideal. They believed that all economic concerns, being purely material, were unworthy of their consideration. Hitler went as far as to blame all previous German governments since Bismarck of having “subjugated the nation to materialism” by relying more on peaceful economic development instead of expansion through war.[5] > > For these reasons, the Nazis never had a clearly defined economic programme. The original “Twenty-Five Point Programme” of the party, adopted in 1920, listed several economic demands (including “the abolition of all incomes unearned by work,” “the ruthless confiscation of all war profits,” “the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations,” “profit-sharing in large enterprises,” “extensive development of insurance for old-age,” and “land reform suitable to our national requirements”),[6] but the degree to which the Nazis supported this programme in later years has been questioned. Several attempts were made in the 1920s to change some of the program or replace it entirely. For instance, in 1924, Gottfried Feder proposed a new 39-point program that kept some of the old planks, replaced others and added many completely new ones.[7] Hitler refused to allow any discussion of the party programme after 1925, ostensibly on the grounds that no discussion was necessary because the programme was “inviolable” and did not need any changes. At the same time, however, Hitler never voiced public support for the programme and many historians argue that he was in fact privately opposed to it. Hitler did not mention any of the planks of the programme in his book, Mein Kampf, and only talked about it in passing as “the so-called programme of the movement”.[8] > > Hitler’s views on economics, beyond his early belief that the economy was of secondary importance, are a matter of debate. On the one hand, he proclaimed in one of his speeches that “we are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system”,[9] but he was clear to point out that his interpretation of socialism “has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism,” saying that “Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not.”[10] At a later time, Hitler said: “Socialism! That is an unfortunate word altogether… What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism.”[11] In private, Hitler also said that “I absolutely insist on protecting private property… we must encourage private initiative”.[12] On yet another occasion he qualified that statement by saying that the government should have the power to regulate the use of private property for the good of the nation.[13] Hitler clearly believed that the lack of a precise economic programme was one of the Nazi Party’s strengths, saying: “The basic feature of our economic theory is that we have no theory at all.”[14] While not espousing a specific economic philosophy, Hitler employed anti-semitic themes to attack economic systems in other countries, associating ethnic Jews with both communism (“Jewish Bolsheviks”) and capitalism, both of which he opposed.[15][16] Hitler also believed that individuals within a nation battled with each other for survival, and that such ruthless competition was good for the health of the nation, because it promoted “superior individuals” to higher positions in society.[17] ---
**Author:** ![crewface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@crewface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crewface)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903/40 "2011-07-08T03:37:37Z")
I vote, something else. Politics, no matter which brand, is all about speaking lies in a misleading manner to achieve personal wealth and power. Platforms are a myth. It is all about the MONEY, not theirs, other peoples money. Our politicians are bought and paid for. They are owned. Not by the rich, that seems to be one brands “talking hate word”, but by Power hungry individuals. Bill Gates is rich and powerful, but I do not think anyone here could put him in this category. What about Al Gore, certainly wealthy, does not have to work, and never has, but, is he a power hungry jerk? Of course. Hillary? Of course, the Bushes, well, of course. See? If it quacks like a Hitler, it is one. If u all do what I say right now, I will save the world, feed you all, get rid of the undesirables, give you all security, and MAKE everyone be nice. My special police will see to it. Withholding power and allowing it in pinches and pokes by informed voting will work wonders on World Domination Power grabbers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-politics-truly-a-left-right-linear-line-or-something-else/587903.md?page=3)