# Are Pro football teams today really any better than the teams of the 70's and 80's? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 26, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862 "2006-11-26T19:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/41 "2006-12-02T23:50:24Z")
Right. As I understand it, it just measures one team’s success for its era, and compares it to the other team’s success for its era, which would serve to perfectly level the playing field. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/42 "2006-12-03T04:05:20Z")
I will post twice rather than monster post. I think one thing not touched on is that Teams significantly played by different rules – Rules that favored for Instance a QB who could hang in a bit longer to take a vicious hit (not as important today) and rules that allowed huge monster hitting LB’s and Linemen to play a bigger role as most defenses ask LB’s now to play more pass coverage or specialize. E.g.\*\* A. \*\*pre-1980 players were allowed to directly strike, swing, or club on the head, neck, or face. Starting in 1980, a penalty could be called for such contact whether or not the initial contact was made below the neck area – so that meant that players that could withtand/dishout headslaps were less valuable after 1980. **B**.Simalrly 1979 NFL rules changes prohibited players on the receiving team from blocking below the waist during kickoffs, punts, and field-goal attempts; and had the first in the grasp QB rules. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/43 "2006-12-03T04:16:54Z")
Spent way, way too much time – that I didn’t have – on this I know… but the size question seemed knowable - not theoretical. Following Cheeesecake and Ripper I used the NFL '83 version vs. 2006. ProFootball [Insiders and FOX](http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5794000) rated the Broncos the best O-line coming into the 2006 season – but lets say they are top 5 to avoid getting caught up on that Denver06 LT Pears 6’8 305/ LG Hamiltion 6’4 283/C Nalen 6’3 286/RG Kuper 6’5 285/RT Meadows 6’5 290/ Alexander TE 6’4 280 Vs. The Hogs 1984 Superbowl version (lost this Superbowl but were reigning NFL Champs, 14-2 and set record for scoring still 2nd all time) LT Jacoby 6-7, 310,/LG Grimm 6’3 270/C Bostic 6-2, 260/RG May 6’6 295/ RT Starke 6’ 5’ 255/ Warren 6’4 240 AVERAGE 6’4.5 271 AVERAGE 2006 BRONCO Starting O-Lineman 6’4.8 288 vs. Average SuperSkins 1983 6’4.5 271 – about a third of an inch and 17 lbs difference on average (A statistically valid average would be to randomly select an appropriate number, or all players, at each position and average it and compare – I ain’t doing that) Pro Football [Insiders and FOX](http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5819844) rated the Bears the best D-front 7 coming into the 2006 season – but lets say they are top 5 to avoid getting caught up on that Ogunleye,6’4 270/ DT Harris 6’3 300/Johnson 6’3 300/Brown DE 6’3 260 Briggs 6’1 240, Urlacher 6’4 258/ Hillenmeyer 6’4 258 Vs. Miami was the [best](http://www.databasefootball.com/leagues/leagueyear.htm?yr=1983&lg=nfl) Statistical Defense in the 1983 Season. I can see their players but cannot be sure I am picking starters (Remember it is a 3-4 D Took top 7 Defensive stat leaders who weren’t CB/S) DE Betters 6’7 260/NT Baumhower 6’ 5’’ 265//DELB Bokamper 6’6 250 LB Bowser 6’3 232/DELB Duhe 6’4 249/DELB Brown 6’2 230/Rhone 6’2 218 AVERAGE 2006 BEAR Front D-7 6’3 269.4 vs. Average Killer B’s 1983 6’4 271 – about an shorter and 2 lbs lighter today on average (Again a statistically valid average would be to randomly select an appropriate number, or all players, at each position and average it and compare – I ain’t doing that) Really I think the rules (and speed implied but not shown here) is where most of the difference is Football 23 years on is faster, more specialized and less overtly brutish. I submit this: The NFL 2006 vs. 1983 is a different game - more different than a BCS College Game is than the NFL today - the skills sets don’t match 1:1 ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/44 "2006-12-03T04:49:06Z")
[QUOTE=Enginerd] Hey, what’s your username on WIS? I’ve been playing there (just baseball and GD, though - no NFL) for about four years - I’m shark9685. [/QUOTE] I’ve tinkered on the site, but never paid for a subscription. If we wanna start a league, I’m all for registering. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/45 "2006-12-03T04:52:28Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] I will post twice rather than monster post. I think one thing not touched on is that Teams significantly played by different rules – Rules that favored for Instance a QB who could hang in a bit longer to take a vicious hit (not as important today) and rules that allowed huge monster hitting LB’s and Linemen to play a bigger role as most defenses ask LB’s now to play more pass coverage or specialize. E.g.\*\* A. \*\*pre-1980 players were allowed to directly strike, swing, or club on the head, neck, or face. Starting in 1980, a penalty could be called for such contact whether or not the initial contact was made below the neck area – so that meant that players that could withtand/dishout headslaps were less valuable after 1980. **B**.Simalrly 1979 NFL rules changes prohibited players on the receiving team from blocking below the waist during kickoffs, punts, and field-goal attempts; and had the first in the grasp QB rules. [/QUOTE] Because of these rules, I wonder how [Night Train Lane](http://www.cmgworldwide.com/football/lane/) would have fared against the receivers of today. If allowed to be physical, he might be one of the few anomalies that would be way above average today. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/46 "2006-12-03T15:57:03Z")
The Broncos OL is considered undersized, and that contributes to some of the controversy about their cut blocking scheme. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Broncos line was right in the middle between the sizes of yesteryear and the average of the other four teams in the top 5. (Though I’m not even sure who those four would be.) ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/47 "2006-12-03T18:39:47Z")
Since, the argument is about average size rather than the best of the best, it’s probably ok to simply look at the best rushing teams in the league. The top 5 rushing teams right now are Atlanta, San Diego, Jacksonville, San Francisco, and Dallas. Atlanta uses the same cut-blocking scheme that Denver uses, so I’d expect their o-line to be on the small side compared to the other four teams there. Atlanta Falcons LT: Gandy (6-4, 315) LG: Alexander (6-4, 297) C: McClure (6-1, 286) RG: Clabo (6-6, 314) RT: Weiner (6-4, 297) TE: Crumpler (6-2, 262) Line Average: 6-3.8, 302 Average w/ TE: 6-3.5, 295 San Diego Chargers LT: McNeil (6-7. 336) LG: Deilman (6-4, 310) C: Hardwick (6-4, 295) RG: Goff (6-5, 311) RT: Olivea (6-4, 312) TE: Gates (6-4, 260) Line Average: 6-4.8, 312 Average w/ TE: 6-4.7, 304 Jacksonville Jaguars LT: Barnes (6-5, 325) LG: Manuwai (6-2, 325) C: Meester (6-3, 300) RG: Naeole (6-3, 330) RT: Williams (6-5, 315) TE: Brady\* (6-6, 280) Line Average: 6-3.6, 319 Average w/ TE: 6-4, 313 San Francisco 49ers LT: Jennings (6-3, 325) LG: Allen (6-3, 325) C: Heitmann (6-3, 305) RG: Smiley (6-3, 301) RT: Harris (6-7, 310) TE: Davis (6-3, 253) Line Average: 6-3.8, 313 Average w/ TE: 6-3.7, 303 Dallas Cowboys LT: Adams (6-7. 340) LG: Kosier (6-5, 305) C: Gurode (6-4, 312) RG: Rivera (6-4, 309) RT: Colombo (6-8, 320) TE: Witten (6-5, 265) Line Average: 6-5.6, 317 Average w/ TE: 6-5.5, 308 Based on these numbers, the average starting NFL lineman on a top rushing offense is a little over 6-4 and 313 pounds. Looking at the numbers for the Broncos that **Jimmy** listed above, you notice that every guy on the Broncos’ line is lighter than average - they’re probably not the best team to use as the basis for comparing sizes. The average “Hog” was 40 pounds lighter than the average top lineman is now - that’s a much bigger difference than you see looking at just the Broncos. Jacoby was the only one within spitting distance of the average - the other 4 are tiny by today’s standards. Lightest Active Offensive Linemen (not including long snappers who don’t play other o-line positions: BUF: T Brad Butler 6-8, 292 MIA: T Orrin Thompson 6-6, 310 NE: C Dan Koppen 6-2, 296 NYJ: G Pete Kendall 6-5, 292 BAL: C Chris Chester 6-3, 305 CIN: G Eric Steinback 6-6, 290 CLE: G Lennie Friedmann 6-3, 295 PIT: C Brandon Newton 6-2, 296 HOU: C Scott Jackson 6-4, 300 IND: G Ryan Lilja 6-2, 290 JAC: C Brad Meester 6-3, 300 TEN: C Kevin Mawae 6-4, 289 DEN: G Ben Hamilton 6-4, 283 KC: C Casey Wiegmann 6-2, 285 OAK: C Jake Grove 6-4, 300 SD: C Corey Withrow 6-2, 287 DAL: C E.J. Whitney 6-5, 293 NYG: C Grey Reugamer 6-4, 299 PHI: T Stefan Rodgers 6-4, 305 WAS: C Casey Rabach 6-4, 295 CHI: C Olin Kreutz 6-2, 292 DET: C Dominic Raiola 6-1, 295 GB: G Daryn Colledge 6-4, 299 MIN: G Jason Whittle 6-4, 305 ATL: C Todd McClure 6-1, 286 CAR: T Rashad Butler 6-4, 293 NO: C Jeff Faine 6-3, 291 TB: C Nick Mihlhauser 6-3, 291 ARI: C Nick Leckey 6-3, 291 STL: C Brett Romberg 6-3, 293 SF: T Patrick Estes 6-7, 280 SEA: T Sean Locklear 6-3, 301 The smallest active O-lineman in the NFL today is 49ers tackle Patrick Estes, who weighs in at 280 pounds. Three of the five starting “Hogs” are smaller than Estes. Today’s defensive lines would crash through them like a knife through hot butter. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/48 "2006-12-03T18:48:30Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] I’ve tinkered on the site, but never paid for a subscription. If we wanna start a league, I’m all for registering. [/QUOTE] I think it would be fun. I’ll be traveling for most of December, but we can give it a shot when I get back. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/49 "2006-12-04T00:08:20Z")
The payers of the past would also be bigger and faster today. Therefore the Packers of Lombardi would be just as good now as they were then. if you want to time warp them up to today ,thats different. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/50 "2006-12-04T00:45:54Z")
Gonzo, ordinarily I’d agree. My question is whether pro football linemen (well every player really) are getting into the league because they get huge after an adolescence full of Creatine milkshakes and other nutritional supplements, or whether they are huge to begin with. In other words if you take today’s linemen and those of the sixties, raise them from birth with the same foods, nutrition, training, weightlifting, would today’s still be bigger? I don’t know the answer to that question. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862/51 "2006-12-04T05:01:16Z")
Let the record also show, in addition to \*\*Ellis Dee’s \*\* material, that most of these good offensive lines have been together as a unit for a few years. That seems to be ingredient number one to Good Running. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-pro-football-teams-today-really-any-better-than-the-teams-of-the-70s-and-80s/381862.md?page=2)