Right. As I understand it, it just measures one team’s success for its era, and compares it to the other team’s success for its era, which would serve to perfectly level the playing field.
I will post twice rather than monster post.
I think one thing not touched on is that Teams significantly played by different rules – Rules that favored for Instance a QB who could hang in a bit longer to take a vicious hit (not as important today) and rules that allowed huge monster hitting LB’s and Linemen to play a bigger role as most defenses ask LB’s now to play more pass coverage or specialize.
E.g.** A. **pre-1980 players were allowed to directly strike, swing, or club on the head, neck, or face. Starting in 1980, a penalty could be called for such contact whether or not the initial contact was made below the neck area – so that meant that players that could withtand/dishout headslaps were less valuable after 1980.
B.Simalrly 1979 NFL rules changes prohibited players on the receiving team from blocking below the waist during kickoffs, punts, and field-goal attempts; and had the first in the grasp QB rules.
Spent way, way too much time – that I didn’t have – on this I know… but the size question seemed knowable - not theoretical. Following Cheeesecake and Ripper I used the NFL '83 version vs. 2006.
ProFootball Insiders and FOX rated the Broncos the best O-line coming into the 2006 season – but lets say they are top 5 to avoid getting caught up on that
Denver06 LT Pears 6’8 305/ LG Hamiltion 6’4 283/C Nalen 6’3 286/RG Kuper 6’5 285/RT Meadows 6’5 290/ Alexander TE 6’4 280
Vs.
The Hogs 1984 Superbowl version (lost this Superbowl but were reigning NFL Champs, 14-2 and set record for scoring still 2nd all time)
LT Jacoby 6-7, 310,/LG Grimm 6’3 270/C Bostic 6-2, 260/RG May 6’6 295/ RT Starke 6’ 5’ 255/ Warren 6’4 240 AVERAGE 6’4.5 271
AVERAGE 2006 BRONCO Starting O-Lineman 6’4.8 288 vs. Average SuperSkins 1983 6’4.5 271 – about a third of an inch and 17 lbs difference on average (A statistically valid average would be to randomly select an appropriate number, or all players, at each position and average it and compare – I ain’t doing that)
Pro Football Insiders and FOX rated the Bears the best D-front 7 coming into the 2006 season – but lets say they are top 5 to avoid getting caught up on that
Ogunleye,6’4 270/ DT Harris 6’3 300/Johnson 6’3 300/Brown DE 6’3 260
Briggs 6’1 240, Urlacher 6’4 258/ Hillenmeyer 6’4 258
Vs.
Miami was the best Statistical Defense in the 1983 Season. I can see their players but cannot be sure I am picking starters (Remember it is a 3-4 D Took top 7 Defensive stat leaders who weren’t CB/S)
DE Betters 6’7 260/NT Baumhower 6’ 5’’ 265//DELB Bokamper 6’6 250
LB Bowser 6’3 232/DELB Duhe 6’4 249/DELB Brown 6’2 230/Rhone 6’2 218
AVERAGE 2006 BEAR Front D-7 6’3 269.4 vs. Average Killer B’s 1983 6’4 271 – about an shorter and 2 lbs lighter today on average (Again a statistically valid average would be to randomly select an appropriate number, or all players, at each position and average it and compare – I ain’t doing that)
Really I think the rules (and speed implied but not shown here) is where most of the difference is Football 23 years on is faster, more specialized and less overtly brutish. I submit this: The NFL 2006 vs. 1983 is a different game - more different than a BCS College Game is than the NFL today - the skills sets don’t match 1:1
I’ve tinkered on the site, but never paid for a subscription. If we wanna start a league, I’m all for registering.
Because of these rules, I wonder how Night Train Lane would have fared against the receivers of today. If allowed to be physical, he might be one of the few anomalies that would be way above average today.
The Broncos OL is considered undersized, and that contributes to some of the controversy about their cut blocking scheme. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Broncos line was right in the middle between the sizes of yesteryear and the average of the other four teams in the top 5. (Though I’m not even sure who those four would be.)
Since, the argument is about average size rather than the best of the best, it’s probably ok to simply look at the best rushing teams in the league. The top 5 rushing teams right now are Atlanta, San Diego, Jacksonville, San Francisco, and Dallas. Atlanta uses the same cut-blocking scheme that Denver uses, so I’d expect their o-line to be on the small side compared to the other four teams there.
Atlanta Falcons
LT: Gandy (6-4, 315)
LG: Alexander (6-4, 297)
C: McClure (6-1, 286)
RG: Clabo (6-6, 314)
RT: Weiner (6-4, 297)
TE: Crumpler (6-2, 262)
Line Average: 6-3.8, 302
Average w/ TE: 6-3.5, 295
San Diego Chargers
LT: McNeil (6-7. 336)
LG: Deilman (6-4, 310)
C: Hardwick (6-4, 295)
RG: Goff (6-5, 311)
RT: Olivea (6-4, 312)
TE: Gates (6-4, 260)
Line Average: 6-4.8, 312
Average w/ TE: 6-4.7, 304
Jacksonville Jaguars
LT: Barnes (6-5, 325)
LG: Manuwai (6-2, 325)
C: Meester (6-3, 300)
RG: Naeole (6-3, 330)
RT: Williams (6-5, 315)
TE: Brady* (6-6, 280)
Line Average: 6-3.6, 319
Average w/ TE: 6-4, 313
San Francisco 49ers
LT: Jennings (6-3, 325)
LG: Allen (6-3, 325)
C: Heitmann (6-3, 305)
RG: Smiley (6-3, 301)
RT: Harris (6-7, 310)
TE: Davis (6-3, 253)
Line Average: 6-3.8, 313
Average w/ TE: 6-3.7, 303
Dallas Cowboys
LT: Adams (6-7. 340)
LG: Kosier (6-5, 305)
C: Gurode (6-4, 312)
RG: Rivera (6-4, 309)
RT: Colombo (6-8, 320)
TE: Witten (6-5, 265)
Line Average: 6-5.6, 317
Average w/ TE: 6-5.5, 308
Based on these numbers, the average starting NFL lineman on a top rushing offense is a little over 6-4 and 313 pounds. Looking at the numbers for the Broncos that Jimmy listed above, you notice that every guy on the Broncos’ line is lighter than average - they’re probably not the best team to use as the basis for comparing sizes.
The average “Hog” was 40 pounds lighter than the average top lineman is now - that’s a much bigger difference than you see looking at just the Broncos. Jacoby was the only one within spitting distance of the average - the other 4 are tiny by today’s standards.
Lightest Active Offensive Linemen (not including long snappers who don’t play other o-line positions:
BUF: T Brad Butler 6-8, 292
MIA: T Orrin Thompson 6-6, 310
NE: C Dan Koppen 6-2, 296
NYJ: G Pete Kendall 6-5, 292
BAL: C Chris Chester 6-3, 305
CIN: G Eric Steinback 6-6, 290
CLE: G Lennie Friedmann 6-3, 295
PIT: C Brandon Newton 6-2, 296
HOU: C Scott Jackson 6-4, 300
IND: G Ryan Lilja 6-2, 290
JAC: C Brad Meester 6-3, 300
TEN: C Kevin Mawae 6-4, 289
DEN: G Ben Hamilton 6-4, 283
KC: C Casey Wiegmann 6-2, 285
OAK: C Jake Grove 6-4, 300
SD: C Corey Withrow 6-2, 287
DAL: C E.J. Whitney 6-5, 293
NYG: C Grey Reugamer 6-4, 299
PHI: T Stefan Rodgers 6-4, 305
WAS: C Casey Rabach 6-4, 295
CHI: C Olin Kreutz 6-2, 292
DET: C Dominic Raiola 6-1, 295
GB: G Daryn Colledge 6-4, 299
MIN: G Jason Whittle 6-4, 305
ATL: C Todd McClure 6-1, 286
CAR: T Rashad Butler 6-4, 293
NO: C Jeff Faine 6-3, 291
TB: C Nick Mihlhauser 6-3, 291
ARI: C Nick Leckey 6-3, 291
STL: C Brett Romberg 6-3, 293
SF: T Patrick Estes 6-7, 280
SEA: T Sean Locklear 6-3, 301
The smallest active O-lineman in the NFL today is 49ers tackle Patrick Estes, who weighs in at 280 pounds. Three of the five starting “Hogs” are smaller than Estes. Today’s defensive lines would crash through them like a knife through hot butter.
I think it would be fun. I’ll be traveling for most of December, but we can give it a shot when I get back.
The payers of the past would also be bigger and faster today. Therefore the Packers of Lombardi would be just as good now as they were then. if you want to time warp them up to today ,thats different.
Gonzo, ordinarily I’d agree. My question is whether pro football linemen (well every player
really) are getting into the league because they get huge after an adolescence full of Creatine
milkshakes and other nutritional supplements, or whether they are huge to begin with. In
other words if you take today’s linemen and those of the sixties, raise them from birth with
the same foods, nutrition, training, weightlifting, would today’s still be bigger? I don’t know
the answer to that question.
Let the record also show, in addition to **Ellis Dee’s ** material, that most of these good offensive lines have been together as a unit for a few years. That seems to be ingredient number one to Good Running.