# Are protests less effective today than they were in the 1960s? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918 "2015-01-15T19:00:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/21 "2015-01-16T19:55:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What would you suggest? Mass public defecation? I would recommend that, certainly. What? Oh, not for any political message. Just for lulz. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/22 "2015-01-16T21:50:14Z")
Let’s not forget the mass political movements of the 30s either. Lots of countries saw huge demonstrations and marches and political theater by various political groups, and some of those groups managed to radically transform their countries, and even influence neighboring countries. I tend to think that the massive over-reactions to demonstrations in the 60s were by people who remembered the 30s. Nowadays nobody cares if you march along the street holding a sign. It’s only interesting if you get a lot more people than you would expect to support a march for such-and-such. But I suspect that marches and political rallies used to be a lot more interesting back in the days when there was nothing interesting happening. People would go to political rallies to feel certain emotions, or just because they were bored. Nowadays if you want to be overcome by emotion in a group you can go to a musical or sports event, and there’s always plenty things to entertain you at home. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/23 "2015-01-16T22:05:58Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > That’s the opposite of what happened in Ferguson, where mourners came out for a candlelight vigil and police showed up with full riot gear and tanks and tear gassed everyone. THEN it turned into a movement. > > Though maybe that’s why Ferguson ignited a much more widespread and sympathetic base of support than, say, OWS. My opinion exactly. The Ferguson cops acted like it was still the 1960s, and got a 1960s reaction as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/24 "2015-01-17T00:16:32Z")
Protests are no less effective today than they were then. The issues being protested simply aren’t as critical, and mainstream America just doesn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/25 "2015-01-17T00:23:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think it is the tactics - it is what they are protesting that is different. > > Occupy Wall Street had no idea what they were protesting, except that it was bad, and no suggestions on what to do about it, except that it was real bad. Black Lives Matter is protesting that the \*\*police are shooting too many black guys and glossing over the fact that the ones who get shot are either stupid, \*\*criminals, or both. > > But as mentioned, the anti-Viet Nam war protests mostly died away after the draft was abolished. So it was not so much a protest of an unjust war as “as long as I don’t get my ass shot it goes to the back burner”. > > Regards, > Shodan And it is OK to shoot black men who are stupid? Would you also be OK with shooting people with Downs Syndrome? ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/26 "2015-01-17T00:35:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The protests in the 1960s were more effective because the authorities handled them poorly. They _wildly_ overreacted, used dogs and firehoses and so forth; the authorities made the protests into spectacles of brutality by the authorities and in the process demonized themselves. Exactly as the protesters wanted. > > These days the authorities know better; they handle the protestors with kid gloves and ignore them as much as possible, which robs protests of most of their effectiveness. Watching the Ferguson marchers being gassed by the police reminded me so much of 1968 I had to get in touch with people I hadn’t heard from for 40 years and more. ANd one of the above posters said Nixon and Johnson ended the war when they wanted to, Actually it ended when the men in pajamas beat the USA at its own game. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/27 "2015-01-17T00:55:49Z")
Great post **AHunter3**. A hundred thousand people in the streets has precious few causal mechanisms linking them to the levers of power. It’s unlikely you can shame or guilt trip the oligarchy. They might throw you a bone if they’re afraid of a Bastille storming moment, or if their stocks take a hit from bad PR. Protests can be pretty effective for getting dates. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/28 "2015-01-17T01:47:23Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Protests can be pretty effective for getting dates. “I realized some time ago that I’m not separate from nature just because I have a primate brain - an upper brain - because underneath the primate brain, there’s a mammalian brain, and beneath the mammalian brain, there’s a reptilian brain; and it’s those two lower brains that made the upper brain possible in the first place. Here’s the way it works: The primate brain says, ‘Give peace a chance.’ The mammalian brain says, ‘Give peace a chance, but first let’s kill this motherfucker.’ And the reptilian brain says, ‘Let’s just kill the motherfucker, go to the peace rally and get laid.’” – George Carlin ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/29 "2015-01-17T04:02:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > \*\*Are protests less effective today than they were in the 1960s? > > \*\*Protests were effective in the 1960s ?! Now you tell me. The Civil Rights Movement was extremely effective. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/30 "2015-01-17T05:38:41Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I wasn’t alive in the '60s, but it sure seems the marches and demonstrations of the Civil Rights Movement were effective in bringing about social change. The anti-war movement maybe less so? > > Nowadays it seems like protests can occupy a news cycle but not much really changes… Marriage equality being a big exception, I guess? > > I know it’s really hard to show causation. > > I guess I’m asking are modern day protests like Occupy Wallstreet, Black Lives Matter, etc doing something fundamentally different than protestors of the past, or have the times changed in some way that makes those tactics no longer as effective? The Civil Rights protests of the 50’s and 60’s had the advantage of being morally just and right. The protesters knew that their cause was right, and knew that every decent person must agree with them. When their protests brought worldwide attention, their cause succeeded directly. Occupy Wall Street, in contrast, had no just cause. It was just a bunch of clueless people driven by emotion rather than sound moral reasoning. As others have said, it didn’t even have a clear goal, bit even if there was a goal, the occupy folks wouldn’t have been able to articulate a convincing case for it. As a demonstration of what I’m saying, try reading Dr. King’ s [Letter from Birmingham Jail](http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html), if you haven’t done so before. Can you imagine any leftist activist today writing such a clear, logical, hard-hitting argument? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/31 "2015-01-20T18:30:31Z")
Just saw Selma last night. MLK day, seemed fitting. It reminded me, and should remind all viewers, that yeah, the protest marches of that time were a lot more effective. But those marchers sometimes got fucking KILLED, often got badly beaten. Having an array of armed people, representing the official government, run full-tilt at you in combat gear and beat you heavily and often with clubs and occasionally shooting at you is very different from being asked to disperse and then handcuffed with plastic twist-ties and released with a desk appearance ticket down at the police station. Different to you as the marcher, different to the world watching it unfold on television, different to the politicians, different to the cops who have to confront their _own_ possible feelings about what they’re ordered to do, and so on. Another parallel is the labor strike. The labor movement is moribund in part because strikes are sanitized; the unions aren’t acting with any expectation of paralyzing the industry, nor is the industry generally acting to disrupt, kill, or do much worse than ignore the strikers. Hence, they, too, are reduced to silly-looking people with signs marching in ellipses in front of the gates chanting “Four legs good, two legs bad”. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > What would you suggest? Mass public defecation? You know bloody well that it’s a logical fallacy to behave as if “Well, what’s your alternative?” is a viable way to discredit the assertion that something isn’t working. I don’t know what would work best nowadays; I only know that _except_ when the establishment powers overreact and hence play into the hands of the protesters, (as, yes indeed, they did in Ferguson), protest marches don’t do much. Probably some kind of public education, and using humor, perhaps, to make the stance of the folk you’re up against look ridiculous and indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/32 "2015-01-20T21:02:54Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Protests are no less effective today than they were then. > > The issues being protested simply aren’t as critical, and mainstream America just doesn’t care. They have the attention span of a brain damaged slug. Too obsessed with giving their thumbs a workout on the latest Apple toy. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/33 "2015-01-20T23:20:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It wasn’t legal to lynch black people in the Jim Crow South, but the perpetrators got away with it for one of the same reason police officers (purportedly) get away with brutal treatment of black suspects: sympathetic judges and juries. We mostly dealt with the problem back then by prosecuting lynchers in federal courts instead of state ones. The jury pools were mostly the same, of course, but the judges were better equipped (and more inclined) to deal with the use of race in the selection process and similar problems. We could use the same approach today, and to some degree we do (see DOJ investigations into allegedly racially motivated police killings.) A major difference is the cases you’re talking about in the 60s and 70s were slam-dunk, almost idiot-proof convictions in State court that were only acquittals because of all white judges and juries. The cases in the 2010s are cases that likely would lose in State court and wouldn’t even survive a defense motion to dismiss in a Federal court. I think when they can get convictions the DOJ still does what it can in these cases, but where it wouldn’t even be able to sustain charges it doesn’t, which is essentially what I like to see from professional, government-employed attorneys. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/34 "2015-01-20T23:32:18Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > They have the attention span of a brain damaged slug. Too obsessed with giving their thumbs a workout on the latest Apple toy. The technologically-savvy young were the arbiters of Occupy Wall Street. The rest of us just didn’t care and thought they were a bunch of whiny kids. I agree that, however, that, in general, technology provides comfort and apathy. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/35 "2015-01-21T00:49:18Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > A major difference is the cases you’re talking about in the 60s and 70s were slam-dunk, almost idiot-proof convictions in State court that were only acquittals because of all white judges and juries. The cases in the 2010s are cases that likely would lose in State court and wouldn’t even survive a defense motion to dismiss in a Federal court. I think when they can get convictions the DOJ still does what it can in these cases, but where it wouldn’t even be able to sustain charges it doesn’t, which is essentially what I like to see from professional, government-employed attorneys. The standards for a state court criminal prosecution of an officer use of force are lower than the standards for a federal civil rights claim–in the sense that a reckless or negligent, non-discriminatory use of force can be a crime, while the civil rights claim must prove both purpose and discriminatory intent. So it doesn’t make much sense to say, “The cases in the 2010s are cases that likely would lose in State court and wouldn’t even survive a defense motion to dismiss in a Federal court.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/36 "2015-01-21T01:03:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The standards for a state court criminal prosecution of an officer use of force are lower than the standards for a federal civil rights claim–in the sense that a reckless or negligent, non-discriminatory use of force can be a crime, while the civil rights claim must prove both purpose and discriminatory intent. So it doesn’t make much sense to say, “The cases in the 2010s are cases that likely would lose in State court and wouldn’t even survive a defense motion to dismiss in a Federal court.” Actually it does make sense. Because the prosecution is _easier_ in State court a trial could perhaps happen, but would be a loss for the State (this is exactly what I said.) But because the prosecution is _harder_ at the Federal level, if Federal prosecutors even tried to try the officers in these cases the case would be thrown out (which is again, what I said.) I’m genuinely confused by this post of yours. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/37 "2015-01-21T02:38:09Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Actually it does make sense. Because the prosecution is _easier_ in State court a trial could perhaps happen, but would be a loss for the State (this is exactly what I said.) But because the prosecution is _harder_ at the Federal level, if Federal prosecutors even tried to try the officers in these cases the case would be thrown out (which is again, what I said.) > > I’m genuinely confused by this post of yours. They are completely different kinds of cases. What you’re saying is like saying the JV golf team will probably lose at state, and will definitely lose the water polo nationals. Both things might be true, but for completely different reasons. That is, whether the DOJ can win civil rights cases is completely orthogonal to whether the state prosecutions could be won and should go forward. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/38 "2015-01-21T04:09:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > They are completely different kinds of cases. What you’re saying is like saying the JV golf team will probably lose at state, and will definitely lose the water polo nationals. Both things might be true, but for completely different reasons. That is, whether the DOJ can win civil rights cases is completely orthogonal to whether the state prosecutions could be won and should go forward. That’s not at all an accurate description of the situation, these cases involve trying people for the same set of facts but in which the prosecution at the Federal level has to prove specific intent elements not present in State court. I’m not convinced you’re well informed on these issues given lack of basic understanding of them. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/39 "2015-01-21T04:12:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That’s not at all an accurate description of the situation, these cases involve trying people for the same set of facts but in which the prosecution at the Federal level has to prove specific intent elements not present in State court. I’m not convinced you’re well informed on these issues given lack of basic understanding of them. Heh. Ok. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-protests-less-effective-today-than-they-were-in-the-1960s/709918/40 "2015-01-21T04:14:16Z")
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