Are public schools really not allowed to teach ethical values?

It was certainly not my experience that the intelligent kids were the least likely to adhere to ethical and moral values. It’s just as logical to assume that INTELLIGENT kids would be the first to understand the importance of discipline and would realize that the because-teacher-says-so answer has a functional purpose, and is not the beginning and end of morality.

It would certainly seem to be the current opinion of psychologists that the development of conscience and morality does not beging with an understanding of morality. It begins with an understanding of fear and consequences.

Pearl of wisdom, there – most certainly, everything in the process results in the teaching of values, even inadvertently, and often at odds with the official policy (if there’s any). And of course there are the more, eh, “practical” values developed as school survival skills. Such as “Don’t rock the boat”, “Give the answer the Authority wants even if you think it’s wrong”, “Do whatever it takes to come out ahead a thousandth of a point in the GPA so you’ll be sole valedictorian”, “Sit with the cool kids”, etc.

Absolutely he’s a big talk radio fan.

Where’s the problem with option 1? There’s nothing in the US constitution saying that the government can’t promote particular values, right? It’s just that they cannot promote religion. There’s plenty of ways to say “stealing is wrong because…” without mentioning God.

Well, that’s just because he was an old pissant.

Sorry.

I guess this is for me. I would agree in part, disagree in part. Agree in that some knowledge must be more-or-less directly transmitted, and that students must at times just learn without knowing why they’re learning.

But I would would not agree that this applies only certain fields. I think that in all subjects there is at least some degree of “just write it down,” and a degree of “find it for yourself.”

I would also say that even at the graduate level there is a need for learning basic knowledge of the subject before we “experiment,” and I think, as this thread makes clear, that even very young children are capable of raising and thinking about very deep issues. I don’t buy the model that says you “learn” up until age ___ and then you start “thinking.” Both are essential at all stages.

Oh, I wasn’t implying this at all. IMO there is a very big difference between teaching/learning/knowing ethical values and actually behaving ethically, and you may well have one without the other.

Fine and good. But there are plenty of people who think that much of modern psychology deliberately advances a certain agenda and a certain conception of what human beings are. I’m not prepared to tell them that the “current opinion of psychologists” gives me (or anyone) the authority to teach their kids that morality is a social construct and not a divine fiat.

So as long as they leave the word “God” out, the schools are free to teach whatever values thay like? Howabout “Homosexuality is evil because it does not propagate the species?” Sounds scientific, even, and I’m sure that in some towns the majority of parents would approve.

Nah, now you’re veering into hate speech, not ethical values. You may as well have tried some of the “scientific arguments” the white supremacists use to label non-whites as being less intelligent.

Unfortunately true.

Hey, we all know what Heidegger could do.

I doubt having a teacher stand up and list things that are “right” and “wrong” will have any effect on a student’s moral values whatsoever.
Students learn these things from various role models – parents mostly, though not necessarily – and they learn these things not by memorizing facts but by the watching the actions and behavior of people around them, and internalizing these standards as “normal.” For example, you may never tell a five-year-old that it’s wrong to kill a cat, but if you have a cat at home you treat gently and with respect, your five-year-old probably will imitate your attitude and behavior. (That doesn’t mean he won’t pull the cat’s tail, since he may not recognize that it hurts the cat until he’s told – or scratched.) If you go around kicking puppies and basically treating animals as objects, your five-year-old will probably develop the same attitude, even though you’ve never bothered to explain to him your general philosophy on the subject.

Obviously, there are other influences on children’s moral values than their parents – but their parents are the biggest influence in the early stages of their lives. And if you have a child whose parents, say, insult other people by using racial epithets, then telling the student it’s “wrong” or “bad” at school probably won’t change the ideas he’s internalized. He may avoid these behaviors because they’ll get him in trouble at school, but that doesn’t mean he’s making an ethical decision.
I think students almost always recognize that they’re doing something “wrong” when they mock other students, or steal – if you had them pick “right” or “wrong” on a test next to the word “stealing,” for example, I doubt very many third-graders would get it wrong – but if this factual knowledge hasn’t been made a part of a self-imposed system of ethics by that point, there’s no reason that any classroom lesson would change that.

And I agree with JRDelirious’s point – the vast majority of what both parents and schools teach children is unstated, and probably unintended…

I think most teachers would react by saying, “Why is stealing wrong? Well, why would YOU think it’s wrong?”

And the students would give examples. “It hurts someone-if I had something I really liked and someone took it away,” etc.

The idea that teachers can’t teach right or wrong is stupid. However, in cases like this, the idea is that they shouldn’t TELL them out right it’s wrong, but ASK them why it is wrong, using the Socratic method someone mentioned above.

In fact, that’s how they taught us when I was at a CATHOLIC school. It was never, “It says in the Bible that such and such is wrong…”

No, we’d be given a moral dilemma, and the teachers would ask us how we saw it, and we’d discuss it. Yes, we’d tie it into the Bible and/or catechism, but we weren’t just told, “Because the Bible says so!”

The OP’s relatives may be talking about the trend among some teachers - I doubt seriously that this is driven by the schools - of refusing to acknowledge that one kid has been bad. Example, Billy The Oaf is a beast at recess, picks a few fights, bloodies a few noses, steals some lunch money. When this is drawn to the teacher’s attention, everyone involved in the incidents, even the little retarded girl, is taken to the assistant principal’s office because they were all “behaving badly.” This teaches the children who were merely attacked that Billy the Oaf didn’t get in trouble for what he did, which can be read as a teacher not teaching values.

A woman in my craft group brags about doing stuff like this. To third graders. (She brags about doing it to 3rd graders - she brags to us, and we are all well past 3rd grade!) Frankly, we suspect her of being afraid of the bully kids.

The difference between the good and not so good teachers and books my kids have had is in the degree of connectiveness between the facts that they give. Take history. I agree that telling a kid to go and do some independent studies is wrong, since there are some facts that must be learned. But just teaching the facts as a jumble is just as wrong. My daughters 10th grade history text jumps from place to place to satisfy all the political constraints on history and diversity these days, without drawing connections. She understands the material much better when I show her the threads running through the history. My oldest daughter got nothing from her history book - but when we got a (thick) good history, and she read it, she zipped through her AP history test with no problem.

Please don’t take this as a slam against teachers - with the crappy salaries we’re paying these days, it is a miracle there are any good teachers left.

I’m afraid this is becoming a more and more common method for ‘dealing’ with bullying. I’ve heard of many cases where the bullied students were suspended or asked not to return to school when they told the administration about the bullying.

The administrations are concerned with resolving the problem quickly and efficiently. The problem is that the problem they see isn’t the bullying, but the complaining about the bullying.

I hope it was apparent that I was not advocating anti-gay rhetoric; simply pointing out that it is a widely-held value that is not necessarily tied to religious belief. You can call it “hate speech,” and I can agree; it’s still a value judgement either way.

Agreed… but I submit that teachers, and school generally are role models and powerful imparters of values. 1000+ hours a year in school adds up.

Absolutely.

(deep breath, and…)

Schools and teachers (parents, too, but this thread isn’t about them) create a “moral ecology” in which children learn. Formal lessons may be a part of it, but they are only a part. The anecdote j.c. relates exemplifies what I mean by this. The kids in the class got a very clear lesson in values: namely that regardless of what they say, the people in charge think that order is more important than justice (“I don’t care who started it, you’re all punished”). I suspect that the lesson those children learned trumps a hundred lectures about the importance of playing fair.

You can’t not teach moral lessons. If you teach history at all, you are reflecting a moral judgement that it is right and good to study the past. Well, we’re probably all on board with that … but which history? In covering the Civil War, do we pay any attention at all to the fact that millions still see it as a “war of Northern Agression?” Do we talk about Sally Hemings? Do we skim over the Spanish-American War, or present it as the pivotal moment when a isolationist nation became an imperial power?

You can’t just say “cover all of it” or “present all views.” There are only so many days in the year, and often the most important choices you make as a teacher are the things that you leave out. Which three books are you going to use for the World Lit class? Do you focus on teaching the basics of scientific literacy, or do you emphasize the method? Something is always going to be less emphasized, and something will always be left out, and someone’s parents will always be pissed. But whose?

And always, the most powerful lessons will not be what we teach, but how we teach it. Is there a clear sense of authority in the class, or does the teacher make themselves a “co-discoverer?” Is there a fixed curriculum, or does it bend to meet the students’ interests and wishes? Are there tests and grades? Do students have to “pass” in order to “move up” and finally “graduate?” These are all highly value-laden questions, but you cannot begin to structure an educational program until you answer them.

I am a huge believer in the Socratic method … but that is because I have the firm belief (based in my religion) that truth exists, that human beings can find it, and that in doing so they can make their lives more meaningful. Yet is not hard at all to find fundamentalists who insist that Truth is only found in divine revelation, and it is even easier to find professional educators that believe that the whole idea of “Truth” is a fiction, consciously or unconsciously devised to enshrine specific power structures. There are lots of very intelligent people (many of them professional educators) who believe that the very ideas of “objectivity” and Aristotelian logic are European Male constructs, and that their place at the center of education amounts to institutional sexism and racism. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant (I actually think they have some points). Nor is it important that they are a small minority; they are merely the extreme version of someone who wishes schools spent more time on art and music and not so much on maths.

“But math is useful. Schools should focus on giving students the skills they need to succeed.”

I ask all my students to write an essay about why they are in college. The clear majority answer with something about getting a good job and having careers and making money (the other popular answers are “to party” and “I dunno”). That is their definition of “success,” but it is not mine. I quite frankly don’t give a rat’s ass how much money they make after they leave my class.* I sure as hell don’t live on McDonald’s wages just so I can have the great privilege of helping them become millionaires. But I will and do give myself ulcers worrying about whether or not my lessons are good enough and stay up until 4 a.m. grading papers because I believe passionately that education can make them better human beings.

It quite frankly sickens me that so many of them have such a shallow conception of what it means to be a human and what the value of an education is. But it shouldn’t surprise me, because that is exactly what they are taught.

Every kid knows that the purpose of Fourth Grade is to prepare for Fifth Grade, which prepares you for Junior High and then High School and finally College, after which you will be an Grown-Up and have a Job. If you don’t do well in school, you won’t get a Good Job, which means you are a Failure. Yes, there are good teachers; but the lesson of the whole system in which students are segregated by age and graded is that your purpose is to advance, that there is shame in failure and falling behind, that education is something to be gotten through until you finally arrive at your real destination and can be done with it. The strictly utilitarian and economic view of education that my students have is exactly the one that their school experience has taught them.

Which is not to say that I’m advocating a touchy-feely system with no judgement or structure or rules or consequences, where every child knows in his heart that he is God’s Special Sunflower. I think most kids need to be smacked hard in the ass occasionally and told that they are in fact not a beautiful and unique snowflake.

I am not advocating a system at all. What I am pointing out is that any system, any teacher, any lesson will teach specific values, and that in comparison to those, any attempts at directly teaching “ethical values” are frosting. But addressing the larger sort of moral education that happens in a school would necessarily involve asking the altogether troublesome question of why we think kids need educating anyway, and what our purpose for the whole thing is. We can’t/won’t do that because we fear we won’t reach a consensus, and we’re right.

We end up with a system in which kids stumble along without any clear purpose, with no organizing principle to lend order to all these facts they’re getting, no connection between disciplines, no way to place any relative value on the intellectual currency dumped in their lap. And of course this is itself a moral lesson: the obvious implication is that there is no connection, that life is some stuff followed by some other stuff and that there is no plan or design or structure to it all. Teachers may try to give kids a sense of purpose, but since the economic reason is the only one that teachers can give kids without offending anyone (who doesn’t like money?), that’s all they can fall back on.

Thus it is that when you ask a graduate of our system what the purpose of an education is, all you get is “I dunno. To get a job and make money, I guess.”

And I think that is very sad.

*(unless of course they plan to cut me in on it).

Spectre: You might want to ask your father this question, if you ever feel like it: if his assertion is true, then how in God’s name does the school deal with cheating on tests? Punishment would certainly be “teaching right from wrong,” so what do they do? ALLOW cheating?

Of course, he may very well say “yes,” depending on what he thinks of the public school system, but one of the other posts on this thread brought that to mind.

I’m surprised Columbine is not happening more often with the bullying being looked the other way so often.

I’m surprised Columbine is not happening more often with the bullying being looked the other way so often.

I’m surprised Columbine is not happening more often with the bullying being looked the other way so often.