# Are Punishments for Possession of Child Pornography Excessive? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306 "2013-06-18T21:48:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/21 "2013-06-19T15:44:00Z")
I would agree that real images of real kids only feeds the need to create more of those - so that should be punishable. We also arrest people who use cocaine and heroin, not only those who produce and sell it. Animation or cartoons? Well, I recall seeing some porn of the Peanuts characters somewhere and that was considered quite funny at the time - and there was an infamous drawing somewhere of all the Disney cartoon characters involved in a wild orgy that was also quite popular and considered funny at the time…until Disney sort of put the kibosh on selling any more of those posters. There does have to be some leeway however. Although porn has to legally have disclaimers about the legality of the “actors” ages…I think most people will agree there are some photos out there that certainly have actors who look a few years younger than what is considered legal. Not kiddie porn, but still a bit of the “ick factor” when stumbling across said images and wondering if they really are 18 years old or older. Assuming one or more of those photos turned up in a search, I think that is a far cry from finding pre-teen photos. I believe Brooke Shields was all of 12 years old when she played the role of a child prostitute in Pretty Baby…and shortly afterwards did Blue Lagoon…would photos from those films be considered child pornography today? (And could they even get away with making those films like that today?) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/22 "2013-06-19T16:19:24Z")
I’m not talking about material that’s been drawn. As disgusting as I find it, no one is being harmed. However, pictures and film of actual, real children being molested should always be a crime, and no, I do not find punishment excessive. It’s not about emotion, or revenge. However, our justice system does indeed include some form of punishment, and I believe this is one time it’s warranted. Children have been harmed to create these materials – and by viewing them, you’re only continuing that harm. Seriously, if it were discovered that people were making actual, real snuff films (as opposed to fake ones), you don’t think they should be outlawed? > [@Bozuit](#): > > Let’s also keep in mind that we have no reason to think a paedophile who likes child porn is any more likely to molest a child than a straight man who likes straight porn is likely to molest an adult woman. Huh? Is this a joke? By viewing child porn (involving real children) you ARE molesting children. Kids are being harmed to create this material. Adults can consent to make porn. Kids can’t. The comparison is completely asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/23 "2013-06-19T16:22:20Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > I would agree that real images of real kids only feeds the need to create more of those - so that should be punishable. We also arrest people who use cocaine and heroin, not only those who produce and sell it. I’m not sure this is a good analogy. There are many people that would question the idea of arresting drug users. There is also the fact that we consider the drugs themselves to be what causes the harm, hence anyone involved is a criminal. With child pornography, it’s the actual production that causes the main harm. However, there is also the issue raised in this thread of the child’s feelings about pictures or videos of them being spread around. In the end, the important thing is to consider the harm done. In the case of drawn images, the harm done seems to be zero. Perhaps decriminalization of this kind of pornography, besides being “fairer” (in my opinion), would offer a harmless alternative to pornography involving actual children. This logic could also be extended to distinguish between different levels of harm done to a real child. A picture of an unidentifiable child who isn’t even aware of its existence is surely far less harmful than a picture of a child being actively molested or raped. I would argue this should be reflected in sentencing too. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/24 "2013-06-19T16:25:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Huh? Is this a joke? By viewing child porn (involving real children) you ARE molesting children. Kids are being harmed to create this material. Adults can consent to make porn. Kids can’t. The comparison is completely asinine. In what jurisdiction is physically molesting a child and the possession of child pornography the same crime and an offender charged and persecuted for that crime? If you are making a moral argument, fine, but we’re talking about legal issues in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/25 "2013-06-19T16:30:28Z")
Wouldn’t someone guilty of possession of child pornography (and not someone who just came across one picture accidentally), an actual pedophile, be insane by definition? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/26 "2013-06-19T16:31:29Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Also, I think sentences need to take into account whether the person paid for the material or not. If you simply go to a website and click on an image, then I think it’s really a stretch to say that you are providing a market for the abuse you watch. Have you any evidence that we’ve ever charged or convicted anyone for merely clicking on an image? Or do we reserve punishment for actual consumers who download, save, purchase, and peddle said images? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/27 "2013-06-19T16:32:21Z")
Two things bother me about excessive punishments for possession of child pronography. One, it seems to me like it’d be an easy thing to set somebody else up for. Two, I wonder whether stiff penalties for mere possession would make it harder to trace and catch the people who produce and distribute the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/28 "2013-06-19T17:17:22Z")
It’s not as easy to set someone up as you might think. My husband works in IT security and has testified in 2 separate cases where employees where downloading child porn onto their work PC’s with all of the associated tracking that implies and they still had to do a ton of work to prove that it was actually the owner of the account and PC in order to terminate them for cause. The subsequent crown case for possession utilized all of the documentation they had compiled. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/29 "2013-06-19T17:21:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We’ve been hearing that about porn for decades, but the actual evidence seems to be that if anything the availability of porn reduces sex crimes. If the pattern holds then cartoon or CGI porn being available should reduce the incidence of _actual children_ being _actually molested_ - which is much more important than making some abstract symbolic point about how much we disapprove of it. I think this is probably true, and as much as I DO NOT support any form of child pornography that depicts real children, I do support CGI or animated pornography that helps people with illegal, unfulfillable urges get some type of relief. Hell, I support making child size RealDolls and having them subsidized by the government, for people with these desires. I’m about practicality. If it will help someone, without hurting a child (or even reduce the chance a child will be harmed) I’m for it. Yes, it grosses me out, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a good idea. The system we have now is essentially worthless. We ought to find a new way. But since the American public isn’t even really comfortable with adult porn, hell, a large segment oppose _birth control_, I don’t see it happening any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/30 "2013-06-19T17:27:14Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Wouldn’t someone guilty of possession of child pornography (and not someone who just came across one picture accidentally), an actual pedophile, be insane by definition? No, not at all - being legally insane isn’t the same thing as being mentally ill. Insanity is a mental condition which relieves the defendant of culpability for a crime. The most common legal definition of insanity is typically that the person doesn’t understand the wrongness of his actions, with some jurisdictions adding language that excuses a person who cannot appreciate the true nature of his actions or cannot conform their behavior with the law. For example, a person with an extreme intellectual deficit who grabs a woman’s breasts in public because he honestly thought that was how one initiated a relationship would be able to avail themselves of an insanity defense. Pedophilia is a DSM diagnosis and generally seen as a paraphilic mental illness, but a pedophile knows that possessing child pornography or offending against a child is both illegal and considered wrong by society and is fully able to understand exactly what they are doing. ETA: As an example, here is the federal rule for insanity, which would cover federal child pornography charges. “It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under any Federal statute that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/31 "2013-06-19T21:15:07Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > . . . What if I drew a picture of two stick figures having sex and labeled it “12 year olds having sex?” . . . And the contrapositive: lots and lots of x-rated movies and comics and books have an entirely gratuitous scene where the characters identify themselves as being over 21. “Gee, Bitsy, now that it’s my 21st birthday, I think I’m gonna…” It’s kind of funny, especially when the characters are drawn to resemble 16 year olds or younger. Frank Thorne drew a very challenging porn story, where an old guy – like, sixty years old, with a big beard and everything – went through a rejuvenator. He came out with the body of a 12 year old boy. But he’s still the same guy. So, he has sexual adventures. “Child porn?” Nominally, not, because the character is an adult. In practice? Yes, because it shows a young boy naked and having sex. The law is not capable of keeping up with the imagination of the writers and artists! ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/32 "2013-06-19T22:26:55Z")
Yes, in much the same way that I believe punishments for marijuana possession are excessive. But alas, I have not yet been elected Queen of the Universe. So my opinion doesn’t mean diddly. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/33 "2013-06-19T22:33:25Z")
And if those animated images are of real children;whether they were drawn nude or through some playground surveillance? And for those who say that animated kiddie porn satiates pedophiles…cites please. Ot could also empower them to seek out the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/34 "2013-06-20T00:30:56Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And if those animated images are of real children;whether they were drawn nude or through some playground surveillance? Then it’s pretty much universally agreed that a crime was committed in the production of the material. (But… Paintings of Madonna and Child? Cutsie snapshots of little babies on bearskin rugs? Where does nudity end and pornography begin?) > [@](#): > > And for those who say that animated kiddie porn satiates pedophiles…cites please. Ot could also empower them to seek out the real thing. Well, if you’re going to base a public policy stance on that basis, it’s up to you to show that it does lead them to seek out the real thing. Otherwise, you’re just crying “witch.” You have to show us the data, if you want us to vote for legislators who will ban it. It could cause them to go out prowling. Or it might just cause them to masturbate and then take a nap. Legislation based on “might” is going to be dimly viewed during judicial review. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/35 "2013-06-20T00:50:32Z")
What are your views on using legal-age but younger-looking actresses in porn? It’d be even more realistic than animation. What if they played an infant in the story? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/36 "2013-06-20T01:18:22Z")
I think it’s very important to distinguish between deliberate consumers of child pornography and some guy who bought a CD of 500 megs of porn images from a nonreputable source and it turns out that of those gazillions of images 2 or 3 are of children and another dozen are of 17-year-olds instead of 18-year-olds. And as others have pointed out, it’s important to distinguish between photos/videos of real children and text descriptions or drawings of imaginary children. All of that said, 9 years for “bad” “real” child porn possession seems totally reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/37 "2013-06-20T01:34:37Z")
I have no problem with punishments for child porn, but here’s the sort of situation I worry about: 13-14 month old child is fresh out of the bathtub and is squirmy in the post-bath toweling off and prefers to air dry by taking an extended run around the interior of the home. Parent thinks it’s cute as hell and instead of chasing child around with a towel grabs a video cam and records it. Later, maybe parent gives copy of video to a grandparent who lives in a different city to share some of the child’s life with grandma. I’d hate to see anyone in that scenario charged with any child pornography thing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/38 "2013-06-20T03:07:59Z")
**Ranger Jeff** : no cites available, but I think that sort of thing has happened. [Here’s the first thing that came up when I Googled.](http://www.theagitator.com/2009/05/04/grandma-arrested-for-child-porn/) ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/39 "2013-06-20T03:32:46Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Let’s also keep in mind that we have no reason to think a paedophile who likes child porn is any more likely to molest a child than a straight man who likes straight porn is likely to molest an adult woman. The difference is that all sexual activity with children is molestation. Someone inspired by porn to have consensual sex with an adult is doing nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306/40 "2013-06-20T04:52:27Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > The difference is that all sexual activity with children is molestation. Someone inspired by porn to have consensual sex with an adult is doing nothing wrong. And yet there is no law against producing rape fantasy porn, even though rape is easily just as bad as molesting a child, and “may inspire someone to go out and rape someone.” I agree that all REAL child pornography created involves molesting of a child (even if you are just taking surreptitious pictures of nude children somehow, it’s an exploitative form of molestation), but imaginary child porn (using animation, cartoons, or 3d art) is exactly the same as using actors and actresses to act out a rape fantasy adult video… which is EXTREMELY common. And I still want to drive the point home that I mentioned earlier. Someone who enjoys a rape fantasy video does not necessarily even like rape or want to commit rape. In the same way someone who enjoys violent horror movies might not be a serial killer. And in that similar sense, a person who enjoys fake/fantasy child pornography might not be a pedophile just waiting for his chance to go out and molest a real child. The very fact that people KNOW it’s just a fantasy makes it “ok” to enjoy, but carrying out rape, murder or molesting of a child would be a huge turn-off for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-punishments-for-possession-of-child-pornography-excessive/661306.md?page=3)