# Are Rat Kings real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762 "2012-09-15T04:21:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MetroGnome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@MetroGnome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MetroGnome)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/1 "2012-09-15T04:21:02Z")
First, the definition of a rat king (from Wikipedia): “…phenomena said to arise when a number of rats become intertwined at their tails, which become stuck together with blood, dirt, ice, excrement or simply knotted.” This just seems highly incredible, and most sources cautiously categorized it as folklore despite the presence of [mummified specimens](http://www.google.com/search?q=rat+king&hl=en&rlz=1C1LENN_enUS499US499&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=kPtTUIalCMeRiALbvoGIBg&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=681). You would think if this was a real thing, there would be more contemporary examples or accounts (outside of that given by Dennis on 30 Rock), so my skepticism held fast. Then I happened upon [this documentation](http://www.buzzfeed.com/txblacklabel/strangest-excuse-for-being-late-to-work-28m7) of a similar occurrence involving juvenile squirrels. So what do the Dopers out there know about this phenomena? Any first hand accounts? Is this really a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/2 "2012-09-15T04:50:34Z")
My ex-girlfriend’s mother’s dog found a Squirrel King once. Does that count? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/3 "2012-09-15T05:01:14Z")
I have to call shenanigans on this. Rat tails are not going to get entwined with each other, these are obviously man made fabrications. I also fail to see how a squirrels short tail hairs could get “knotted” together. This is people being cruel to animals or telling stories. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/4 "2012-09-15T05:17:57Z")
Did anyone notice in the link that the squirrel’s tails were entangled in Christmas tree lights? Not exactly the same thing as a Rat King. I could see this happening to juvenile rats. Perhaps huddling together in a chewed out log to avoid the cold and eventually getting their tails enmired in their feces which hardens and leaves them continuing to gnaw wood until their eventual death and dessication. I could also see some nutty or bored farmer tying their tails together to create the oddity. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/5 "2012-09-15T13:08:21Z")
Whence “king”? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/6 "2012-09-15T14:35:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Did anyone notice in the link that the squirrel’s tails were entangled in Christmas tree lights? Not exactly the same thing as a Rat King. > > I could see this happening to juvenile rats. Perhaps huddling together in a chewed out log to avoid the cold and eventually getting their tails enmired in their feces which hardens and leaves them continuing to gnaw wood until their eventual death and dessication. I could also see some nutty or bored farmer tying their tails together to create the oddity. The rats could, and would, just gnaw through the hardened feces. They can chew through anything. They’d likely chew through their tails, too. A rat’s tail doesn’t have a lot of give to it, especially at the midsection, and it isn’t bendy enough to make any sort of knots. I call shenanigans. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/7 "2012-09-15T14:46:38Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I also fail to see how a squirrels short tail hairs could get “knotted” together. What kind of squrrels had you in mind? Some species have quite bushy tails - and i could well imagine it at least _being possible_ for them to get matted together, either by something very sticky (pine resin?) or by plant burrs. I can’t imagine many plausible scenarios in which this would happen accidentally though, and if it did happen, I expect one of the animals would either gnaw through the tail of the other and/or fight it to the death. ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/8 "2012-09-15T15:57:10Z")
I always thought “rat king” referred to a giant sort of boss rat that was twice the size or more of its kin. Never heard of the OP’s description before this. [http://www.weird-encyclopedia.com/rat-king.php](http://www.weird-encyclopedia.com/rat-king.php) > [@](#): > > A rat king is a rare phenomenon arising in rats. A number of rats become intertwined at the tails, and are joined with blood, dirt, and excrement. Consequently, the animals grow together, joined at the tails, which are often broken. The phenomenon is particularly associated with Germany, where the majority of instances have been located. > > Rat kings have always been a subject of fear and superstition, and killed upon discovery. Nevertheless, there were occasional findings of dead and subsequently mummified rat kings. The museum Mauritianum in Altenburg (Thuringia) shows the largest well-known mummified “rat king”, which was found in 1828 in the fire-place of a miller in Buchheim. It consists of 32 rats. Alcohol-preserved rat kings may be viewed in museums in Hamburg, Hameln, Goettingen and Stuttgart. Altogether, the number of well-known finds of rat kings is small. Depending upon source, it varies between 35 and 50 finds. > > The earliest report of rat kings comes from 1564. With the displacement of the black rat by the brown rat in the 18th century, the phenomenon has died down. For instance, since the beginning of the 20th century, there have been fewer sightings of rat kings, the most recent find dating from April 10, 1986, and comes from a French discovery in the Vendée. > > The “rat king” arises particularly in the black rat (Rattus rattus). The only find involving sawah rats (Rattus rattus brevicaudatus) occurred on March 23, 1918, in Bogor on Java, where a rat king of ten young field rats was found. Similar groupings arise occasionally in other species: in April 1929, a group of young forest mice (Apodemus sylvaticus) was discovered in Holstein, and there continue to exist reports of squirrel kings, of which the Zoological Institute of the University of Hamburg allegedly have a specimen. Rat kings are not to be confused with conjoined twins, which arise in several species. With the rat king, the animals grow together only after birth and are completely separate during birth. > > Historically, rat kings were seen as an extremely bad omen, particularly associated with plagues. Such events also occurred, since rat kings arise only if too many rats exist and are according to little place for new buildings. With an increase in the size of the rat population comes an increase of the chance of outbreak of disease, for example the Black Death, which is spread by rat fleas. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/9 "2012-09-15T16:11:49Z")
Another vote that this is pure hogwash. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/10 "2012-09-15T23:50:18Z")
Maybe mummified remains exist, but the fossilized body of the Cardiff Giant also exists. Doesn’t make him real. The important question: can the Rat King beat up the Gerbil King? I’d believe it more in squirrels due to their fluffy tails. Rats may have a reputation to live in filth, but their fastidiousness at cleaning themselves is equal to cats. YouTube “rats washing” or “rats cleaning” for cuteness. Those dried on turds would be long gone. And as said, their tails are thick and bend just a little. They are not fully prehensile at all. > [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Whence “king”? [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king_%28folklore%29) has some explanation. Usage of the term was used for a social loafer. Then some theories, like a bastardization of French, or because it was thought to be one large animal with many body appendages. Umm… also _King Rat_ is a book by James Clavell. And the picture of the pickled rats makes me think of a “vinegar mother,” another similar term. ---
**Author:** ![cman89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e0b2c6/32.png) [@cman89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cman89)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/11 "2012-09-16T14:20:23Z")
I have had pet rats and i second the notion that their tails are much too stiff along a great percentage of their length to “randomly” tie together. Now I suppose a particularly lowbrow individual may be able to somehow intertwine the flexible tips together as some sort of perverted joke, but I doubt it ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/12 "2012-09-16T15:48:47Z")
I have to agree with those who mention that rats and squirrels would gnaw their or others tails off to get free. The probability of this happening to live animals seems to be much lower than the probability of a hoax. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/13 "2012-09-16T16:42:32Z")
A rat king is a plot point in Pratchett’s _The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents_. The characters speculate on various ways that they could come to exist, but it turns out that the rat king in the book, like presumably all such, was deliberately created by a sick and twisted human. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/14 "2012-09-16T17:55:48Z")
The Rat King was my favorite Ninja Turtles character. > **[Rat king (disambiguation)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_King)** > > A rat king is a rare phenomenon where a group of rats' tails become entangled. > Rat King or Ratking may also refer to: ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/15 "2012-09-16T19:01:30Z")
I’m the Rat King. Duh. :rolleyes: More seriously, rats aren’t stupid. They don’t have meetings where one proposes “hey, let’s interlace our tails and become a super-rat conglomeration!” would get "rat"ified. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/16 "2012-09-17T02:57:48Z")
Why “king”? I’d expect a rat king to have super powers or control over rats, but this sounds like a permanent 3-legged race. Not even gross or scary. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/17 "2012-09-17T03:28:08Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Maybe mummified remains exist, but the fossilized body of the Cardiff Giant also exists. Doesn’t make him real. > > The important question: can the Rat King beat up the Gerbil King? Write your own Richard Gere joke. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/18 "2012-09-17T14:27:25Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Why “king”? I’d expect a rat king to have super powers or control over rats, but this sounds like a permanent 3-legged race. Not even gross or scary. I believe the “king” bit came from the belief (not sure whether true or not) that, when the tail-tangling occurs and renders the rats essentially helpless, the other rats in the colony will bring the rats food to keep them alive. Kind of like bringing tribute to a king. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/19 "2012-09-17T15:00:29Z")
Oh, I was hoping they got around by cartwheeling. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762/20 "2012-09-17T16:06:45Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Oh, I was hoping they got around by cartwheeling. They can’t do that themselves, but a hoop snake can wrap around them and the rats form the spokes to a grotesque wheel. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-rat-kings-real/634762.md?page=2)