# Are religious people crazy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739 "2011-07-20T18:11:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/122 "2011-07-21T19:15:45Z")
“I talk to God.” “I talk to God on my telephone.” Why is the first “normal”, but the second one is “delusional”? Why does the addition of a telephone make the situation different? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/123 "2011-07-21T19:24:10Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > Yes, Christians in this thread, that’s very interesting, what do you think of people who believe in other gods, in fact multiple gods, or any other examples of the above? These people may have just a strong belief they are right as you do, and can point to the effectiveness of whatever traditions they follow to get whatever results they desire. In this thread, as in most threads on religious topics, the Christians have been willing to answer questions and the atheists, for the most part, haven’t. I’m willing to go on answering questions but I feel it’s only fair that you folks answer some questions of your own. I asked four in post #82. A few people have tackled my third question, but no atheist has been willing to answer questions one, two, and four. If you answer those questions, then I’ll answer yours. Sound fair? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/124 "2011-07-21T19:39:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In this thread, as in most threads on religious topics, the Christians have been willing to answer questions and the atheists, for the most part, haven’t. I’m willing to go on answering questions but I feel it’s only fair that you folks answer some questions of your own. I asked four in post #82. A few people have tackled my third question, but no atheist has been willing to answer questions one, two, and four. If you answer those questions, then I’ll answer yours. Sound fair? Maybe people haven’t answered your questions because they’re not valuable? I’m not of the opinion that religious people are crazy, they’re irrational and hold onto delusions, but that’s not the same. I’ll atheist-answer your questions though. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Mmm, mmm. A few questions: > > 1. My parents were atheists and raised me that way. I went to college at one of America’s best science and engineering schools and grad school at a top-twenty university. I converted to Christianity during my last year of graduate school. Does this make me crazy? Not at all. It makes you a person who made an irrational decision. Hardly crazy. > [@](#): > > 1. In the post after the one I quoted you bashed Republicans who were questioning Obama’s birth certificate. I’m sure you’re aware that Obama is a Christian. You may or may not be aware that like me, he had an atheist father and was an atheist early on. (Read his two books if you doubt it.) Given his education, ignorance doesn’t seem terribly likely, so does that make Obama crazy? Are you concerned about having a crazy President? Did you vote for him? (And how did America get this far since all of our Presidents and Vice Presidents and at least the great majority of Congresscritters and Supreme court Justices and governors and so forth were crazy? Obviously this line of questioning could go on for a long time.) Obama isn’t crazy. He’s a person who made an irrational decision. Hardly crazy. > [@](#): > > 1. [As I’ve said before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12980999&postcount=118), prominent atheists are always urging that I believe in non-existent things, far more so than any other group I know of. Are they crazy? Complete and utter nonsense as I posted earlier. > [@](#): > > 1. Professional research has established at great length that religious belief is not caused by or associated with either mental illness or “indoctrination”. ([Cite](http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/55.extract), [cite](http://www.religionomics.com/old/erel/S2-Archives/Iannaccone%20-%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Economics%20of%20Religion.pdf)) What’s your response to this? It is definitely caused by indoctrination in some cases. No one is born Catholic or Seventh Day Adventist. They have to be lied to by authority figures in order to accept the tenets of the religion. Even someone who seeks out religion on their own is grabbing onto something that has a cultural framework. In our culture Christianity has the patina of credibility, so people give it authority when seeking the comforts of a religion. Although, in reality it’s as whakadoo as Scientology or Pastafarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/125 "2011-07-21T19:39:50Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Mmm, mmm. A few questions: > > 1. My parents were atheists and raised me that way. I went to college at one of America’s best science and engineering schools and grad school at a top-twenty university. I converted to Christianity during my last year of graduate school. Does this make me crazy? > > 2. In the post after the one I quoted you bashed Republicans who were questioning Obama’s birth certificate. I’m sure you’re aware that Obama is a Christian. You may or may not be aware that like me, he had an atheist father and was an atheist early on. (Read his two books if you doubt it.) Given his education, ignorance doesn’t seem terribly likely, so does that make Obama crazy? Are you concerned about having a crazy President? Did you vote for him? (And how did America get this far since all of our Presidents and Vice Presidents and at least the great majority of Congresscritters and Supreme court Justices and governors and so forth were crazy? Obviously this line of questioning could go on for a long time.) > > 3. [As I’ve said before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12980999&postcount=118), prominent atheists are always urging that I believe in non-existent things, far more so than any other group I know of. Are they crazy? > > 4. Professional research has established at great length that religious belief is not caused by or associated with either mental illness or “indoctrination”. ([Cite](http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/55.extract), [cite](http://www.religionomics.com/old/erel/S2-Archives/Iannaccone%20-%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Economics%20of%20Religion.pdf)) What’s your response to this? 1. In a sense. Not “insane” but “hard to understand why anyone would do that” 2. I hope and pray Obama is lying about his Christian Beliefs. If he’s sincere, I have a hard time understanding why he would do that. 3. I don’t understand this question. 4. I’m skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/126 "2011-07-21T19:46:50Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Questions that science can never answer, but people still need to ponder, like why are we here, what the purpose and the meaning? That’s what religion is for…that’s what it’s always been for. Science can answer most questions like that just fine, it’s just that people don’t want the answers it provides. And religion doesn’t “answer” them, it just makes things up. As for what religion is for; religion is for spreading and reproducing, like any other infectious disease. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/127 "2011-07-21T19:50:48Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Mmm, mmm. A few questions: > > 1. My parents were atheists and raised me that way. I went to college at one of America’s best science and engineering schools and grad school at a top-twenty university. I converted to Christianity during my last year of graduate school. Does this make me crazy? I’m not sure what you mean by being raised atheist - I suspect that you mean that you were raised without belief in God (possibly that you were raised with antitheistic tendencies?). Does that make you crazy? IMO, no - it makes you wrong, but not crazy. 😉 Revtim doesn’t necessarily link it with craziness either - he links it with ignorance. I’m not sure I’d go that far. It seems to me that some theists (you, perhaps?) arrive at their conclusions based on a number of factors. Some being reasonable arguments, provided one accepts crucial premises. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. In the post after the one I quoted you bashed Republicans who were questioning Obama’s birth certificate. I’m sure you’re aware that Obama is a Christian. You may or may not be aware that like me, he had an atheist father and was an atheist early on. (Read his two books if you doubt it.) Given his education, ignorance doesn’t seem terribly likely, so does that make Obama crazy? Are you concerned about having a crazy President? Did you vote for him? (And how did America get this far since all of our Presidents and Vice Presidents and at least the great majority of Congresscritters and Supreme court Justices and governors and so forth were crazy? Obviously this line of questioning could go on for a long time.) I do not think Obama is crazy…Well, more crazy then any other politician and I don’t think they are crazy for being religious…I think they are crazy for being politicians… 😛 > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. [As I’ve said before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12980999&postcount=118), prominent atheists are always urging that I believe in non-existent things, far more so than any other group I know of. Are they crazy? I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that multiple universes are equal to ‘non existent’ things. Further, I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that the reason people put forth multiple universes is based on faith - which is what you seem to be alluding to by slying saying that such models are without evidence. There might not be any empirical evidence for them (at least none that concrete establish the predicted models), but the reasons for accepting them are not simply out of faith. They are accepted by physicists because they accord to cosmological models and models of reality. To equate an atheist suggesting a multiverse based on mathematical potential models is the same as an infinitude of ‘gods’ is an absurd comparison. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. Professional research has established at great length that religious belief is not caused by or associated with either mental illness or “indoctrination”. ([Cite](http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/55.extract), [cite](http://www.religionomics.com/old/erel/S2-Archives/Iannaccone%20-%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Economics%20of%20Religion.pdf)) What’s your response to this? One of those papers is a paper on cults and the other on the economics of religion. I did not really read them - can you perhaps glean the relevance to your point 4? I’ve already said that I do not think that religious belief is caused by mental illness (well, maybe some is). As to indoctrination - one paper is on brainwashing, which is not the same as cultural indoctrination. I do think that one’s culture plays a role in ones religious belief. Is it an all encompassing force? No, not some cases (most?). ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/128 "2011-07-21T19:51:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Mmm, mmm. A few questions: > > 1. My parents were atheists and raised me that way. I went to college at one of America’s best science and engineering schools and grad school at a top-twenty university. I converted to Christianity during my last year of graduate school. Does this make me crazy? > > 2. In the post after the one I quoted you bashed Republicans who were questioning Obama’s birth certificate. I’m sure you’re aware that Obama is a Christian. You may or may not be aware that like me, he had an atheist father and was an atheist early on. (Read his two books if you doubt it.) Given his education, ignorance doesn’t seem terribly likely, so does that make Obama crazy? Are you concerned about having a crazy President? Did you vote for him? (And how did America get this far since all of our Presidents and Vice Presidents and at least the great majority of Congresscritters and Supreme court Justices and governors and so forth were crazy? Obviously this line of questioning could go on for a long time.) > > 3. [As I’ve said before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12980999&postcount=118), prominent atheists are always urging that I believe in non-existent things, far more so than any other group I know of. Are they crazy? > > 4. Professional research has established at great length that religious belief is not caused by or associated with either mental illness or “indoctrination”. ([Cite](http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/55.extract), [cite](http://www.religionomics.com/old/erel/S2-Archives/Iannaccone%20-%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Economics%20of%20Religion.pdf)) What’s your response to this? 1. I’d rather talk more in the abstract and not directly get into personal opinions of another poster. That’s more fodder for the pit. 2. If they are choosing to legislate/govern/judge claiming to be some conduit or proxy of an allmighty being, then yes, they are crazy or delusional. See: Bachmann, Rick Perry. 3. Unable to even see a full abstract on the first site. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove with the second site, but it doesn’t have a lot to do with the question you’re claiming it does. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/129 "2011-07-21T19:52:05Z")
> [@ITR champion's post 82](#): > > 1. My parents were atheists and raised me that way. I went to college at one of America’s best science and engineering schools and grad school at a top-twenty university. I converted to Christianity during my last year of graduate school. Does this make me crazy? Well, somewhere along the way you bought into a delusion. Conveniently, it’s a delusion shared by many others, so the adjustment is minor. > [@](#): > > 1. In the post after the one I quoted you bashed Republicans who were questioning Obama’s birth certificate. I’m sure you’re aware that Obama is a Christian. You may or may not be aware that like me, he had an atheist father and was an atheist early on. (Read his two books if you doubt it.) Given his education, ignorance doesn’t seem terribly likely, so does that make Obama crazy? Are you concerned about having a crazy President? Did you vote for him? (And how did America get this far since all of our Presidents and Vice Presidents and at least the great majority of Congresscritters and Supreme court Justices and governors and so forth were crazy? Obviously this line of questioning could go on for a long time.) I’m not American, so he’s not my president, nor did I vote for (or against) him. I’m assuming his form of the delusion is relatively mild and will not interfere with his Presidential duties, plus there’s the possibility that in order to mollify others who have the delusion and advance his political career, he has had to make a show of being a Christian (or exaggerate the extent of his Christianity). > [@](#): > > 1. Professional research has established at great length that religious belief is not caused by or associated with either mental illness or “indoctrination”. ([Cite](http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/55.extract), [cite](http://www.religionomics.com/old/erel/S2-Archives/Iannaccone%20-%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Economics%20of%20Religion.pdf)) What’s your response to this? My personal hope is that the vast majority of people who say they are religious aren’t all _that_ religious, in the sense that they won’t let scripture guide them into doing something which is too obviously harmful. Sure they’ll vote against gay marriage and whatnot, out of a vague uneasiness caused by their childhood indoctrination, but for the most part they don’t think about it all beyond the occasional lip-service, and look distrustingly at those who claim to be more devout and directly guided in their day-to-day lives by their religion. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/130 "2011-07-21T20:04:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Science can answer most questions like that just fine, it’s just that people don’t want the answers it provides. And religion doesn’t “answer” them, it just makes things up. As for what religion is for; religion is for spreading and reproducing, like any other infectious disease. Ah ha, you’re cute, DT. Don’t ever change. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/131 "2011-07-21T20:30:17Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Questions that science can never answer, but people still need to ponder, like why are we here, what the purpose and the meaning? That’s what religion is for…that’s what it’s always been for. It think it’s facile to say that all religion ever wanted to do was to explain natural phenomenon…that was part of it, but it was never all of it. And science can’t answer those question…that’s why we have religion and philosophy, and always have. But science has answered questions like why we are. It’s due to evolution, migration, reproduction, ecology, and a very long series of events. It’s a complex and not complete answer, but it’s not a cop out like “cos god said so”. The major difference is that religion allows the user to rest on the laurels of a lame explanation and not think any further. The question has been answered, so why ask or investigate further. “God did it” is pure intellectual laziness. I remember as a little kid asking why I had to clean my room. My mom replied “because I said so”. That’d be the religion. The science is that she felt better in a clean house, needed to get me out of her hair, and wanted a complete set of dishes in the kitchen. To quote Tim Minchin: > [@](#): > > If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. > That show was so cool > because every time there’s a church with a ghoul > Or a ghost in a school > They looked beneath the mask and what was inside? > The fucking janitor or the dude who runs the water-slide. > Throughout history > Every mystery > EVER solved has turned out to be > Not Magic. Also, your description skips out the need to subjugate the followers of said religion to create laws based on fictitious rationale. See: Leviticus. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/132 "2011-07-21T20:32:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, [they function worse](http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/religious-belief-and-societal-health/). The idea that religion is good for society in a very old one but baseless. Just because religion spreads well doesn’t mean it is good for the people and societies it parasitizes, any more than the infectiousness of the flu means that it is good for you. Your link, while interesting, doesn’t get at society vs society conflict. Did your average society without much religion in the past outcompete its rivials? Obviously not. However, was there ever such societies? It could be that human predisposition to religion is, I don’t know…a ‘side affect’ of some other very beneficial attribute? Perhaps. However, I am not convinced that religion isn’t an evolutionary advantage…yet. I think, however, it has to be one or the other or there would be no religion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/133 "2011-07-21T20:38:12Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Questions that science can never answer, but people still need to ponder, like why are we here, what the purpose and the meaning? That’s what religion is for…that’s what it’s always been for. It think it’s facile to say that all religion ever wanted to do was to explain natural phenomenon…that was part of it, but it was never all of it. And science can’t answer those question…that’s why we have religion and philosophy, and always have. If we can do it with philosophy, then why bother with religion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/134 "2011-07-21T20:47:45Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > Science can answer most questions like that just fine, it’s just that people don’t want the answers it provides. And religion doesn’t “answer” them, it just makes things up. As for what religion is for; religion is for spreading and reproducing, like any other infectious disease. Ah ha, you’re cute, DT. Don’t ever change. [/QUOTE] Acting self righteously patronizing doesn’t make your post a refutation of what I said. Perhaps I should return the favor with a condescending head-pat and a comment of “don’t worry your pretty head, little girl.” > [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Your link, while interesting, doesn’t get at society vs society conflict. Did your average society without much religion in the past outcompete its rivials? Obviously not. However, was there ever such societies? It could be that human predisposition to religion is, I don’t know…a ‘side affect’ of some other very beneficial attribute? Perhaps. However, I am not convinced that religion isn’t an evolutionary advantage…yet. > > I think, however, it has to be one or the other or there would be no religion. Not really. The systematic killing of unbelievers explains any genetic tendencies towards religion just fine. And all that the existence of religion demonstrates is that _religion_ is good at surviving and reproducing; not that it’s any good for us. That’s why I used the flu as an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/135 "2011-07-21T20:54:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Acting self righteously patronizing doesn’t make your post a refutation of what I said. Perhaps I should return the favor with a condescending head-pat and a comment of “don’t worry your pretty head, little girl.” Go right ahead, it’s not that different from what I’d expect of you, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/136 "2011-07-21T21:23:09Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > … presented them not as hypotheses but rather as established facts. (As for the claim that they’re “based on observation”, how can that be true if we simultaneously “don’t have the means to test them”?) First off, I have to say that in debates like this, you represent the best on the “pro-religion” (for lack of a better word) side. Is it flatly contradictory, though? For centuries after Democritus we lacked the ability to test for the existence of atoms. The history of scientific research seems to me to be filled with examples of hypotheses that at first could not be tested. They nevertheless were based on observation. I think that we have to draw a disctinction between cannot-be-tested-so-far or has-not-been-so-far-but-can-be on the one hand and untestable in principle on the other. If we can establish the latter beyond reasonable doubt, only then do we have something beyond the scope of science. And if someone has the opinion that something is untesatble in principle, they should be consistent in presenting it as an interesting idea only. You may well be right about how Dawkins and others are muddying the waters in the debate. **- Jack** ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/137 "2011-07-21T21:40:40Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I don’t believe that the Bible holds a **credible historical authority,** so that becomes quickly a moot point. Yes, we all know how you feel. Historians disagree with what you say, though. > [@](#): > > It’s, however, your point (albeit seemingly) that it does, so I would believe the onus goes back on you to substantiate the claim that it does. And if you’re going to agree with the claim that the Iliad has just as much historical validity as the Bible, then the onus is on you to substantiate that. For my part, I’m willing to side with the opinions of professional historians. They may disagree on the extent to which the Bible should be believed as an historical source, but they most certainly do not dismiss it outright. Obviously, not all of them accept it as God’s Word, but as I pointed out earlier, they accord it a great deal more credibility than the Iliad. > [@](#): > > Feel free to [consult Cecil on this one](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/34/is-there-any-historical-basis-for-the-events-of-the-jewish-exodus) who says things like “(t)here’s little historical evidence to establish the existence of anybody from the period”. You’re quoting Cecil Adams out of context. In that post, he was referring specifically to the Jewish Exodus. Perhaps you were unaware of this, but there are 66 books in the Protestant Bible, the Book of Exodus being only one of them. The Bible covers a great deal more than just the events of the Exodus, as even skeptical historians would be quick to acknowledge. So no, you can’t take that one statement from Cecil and legitimately insist that it somehow proves your claim regarding the entire Bible. I think you know this full well. **stpauler** , it’s obvious that you’re not concerned about facts or evidence. You’re not going where the evidence points (e.g. how historians regard the Bible and the Iliad, respectively). Instead, you and **brocks** are starting with your desired conclusion – namely, that the Bible holds as much authority as the Iliad – and trying to argue backwards to support that claim. (In fairness though, I must admit that **brocks** was far worse in that regard, given that he initially chose to compare the Bible to JK Rowling’s deliberate works of fiction.) ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/138 "2011-07-21T22:04:00Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Yes, we all know how you feel. Historians disagree with what you say, though. And they disagree with what you say as well. So there we have it. I’ll debate without proof blah blah blah. > [@JThunder](#): > > And if you’re going to agree with the claim that the Iliad has just as much historical validity as the Bible, then the onus is on you to substantiate that. For my part, I’m willing to side with the opinions of professional historians. They may disagree on the extent to which the Bible should be believed as an historical source, but they most certainly do not dismiss it outright. Obviously, not all of them accept it as God’s Word, but as I pointed out earlier, they accord it a great deal more credibility than the Iliad. No matter what book one picks, it’s never going to be exact apples for apples. I have linked proof to the OP’s claim re: the Iliad. And you’re playing some bullshit games by claiming that I’m stating that they’re on the exact same level. It’s comparing two brothers. There are going to be similarities and differences. But go on and continue to move goal posts and then don’t offer proof again. It’s not debate, it’s just opinion at this point. And I opine you haven’t given an ounce of credence to your opinions. > [@JThunder](#): > > You’re quoting Cecil Adams out of context. In that post, he was referring specifically to the Jewish Exodus. Perhaps you were unaware of this, but there are 66 books in the Protestant Bible, the Book of Exodus being only one of them. The Bible covers a great deal more than just the events of the Exodus, as even skeptical historians would be quick to acknowledge. > > So no, you can’t take that one statement from Cecil and legitimately insist that it somehow proves your claim regarding the entire Bible. I think you know this full well. That’s funny, did I claim to speak for all 66 books of the Bible? Cuz I didn’t. There’s proof up there I didn’t claim that. Nor will I waste my time dissecting all 66 books in one post. But since you conceded my point re: Exodus, great. One down. > [@JThunder](#): > > **stpauler** , it’s obvious that you’re not concerned about facts or evidence. You’re not going where the evidence points (e.g. how historians regard the Bible and the Iliad, respectively). Instead, you and **brocks** are starting with your desired conclusion – namely, that the Bible holds as much authority as the Iliad – and trying to argue backwards to support that claim. (In fairness though, I must admit that **brocks** was far worse in that regard, given that he initially chose to compare the Bible to JK Rowling’s deliberate works of fiction.) Really? The Bible isn’t a work of fiction? I’d say it’s more of a work of shoddy fiction than anything that JK Rowling has produced. At least Rowling had a more consistent editor who properly translated the books. Look at the Bible and how it has been mistranslated time and time again. So, **JThunder** , please give proof of its historical accuracy. Each AND EVERY of the 66 books. I want peer verified proof and not just one link. It’s the scrutiny you applied to my post and if you can’t post that, then it’s safe to say that we can dismiss all of your posts. Hey bud, this is your claim. The gauntlet’s down. Otherwise, you can join me and admit that your posts are full of empty thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/139 "2011-07-21T22:25:32Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Historians disagree with what you say, though. No they don’t. The enslavement in Egypt and the Exodus for example never happened. Nor did Genesis. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/140 "2011-07-21T22:31:31Z")
Oh, and I can’t WAIT to see how historians agree on the events of the book of Revelation. That should be an interesting twist. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739/141 "2011-07-21T22:38:15Z")
It’s rather late to say this, but it has to be said. All through the thread, whenever anyone weighs the question of “crazy” the grand assumption is that being crazy is a _ **bad** _ thing. Now, that’s not only a prejudiced view, _ **it just plain nuts!** _ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-people-crazy/589739.md?page=8)