# Are Religious Sect Changes within Families a Big Deal for Most Folks? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193 "2017-08-20T16:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/41 "2017-08-22T14:11:03Z")
Sure - kids gotta rebel, and if your parents don’t care about whatever you are rebelling against, there’s no point. “You think you’re better than us??” vs. “you’ll break your mother’s heart” is far from unknown. [Relevant sketch from Monty Python](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLoVF7vcBtY). Regards, Shodan (who’s had more gala luncheons than you’ve had 'ot dinners) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/42 "2017-08-22T16:16:26Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It’s considered important ever since the Trinitarian baptism “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” was standardized in one of the councils of Nicene. And that form of baptism is important because it signifies conformation with the Nicene Creed. Which is important because it was one of the early attempts to unify Christian doctrine. > > Whenever the question “who is a Christian” comes up, a good zeroth-order approximation is “anyone who espouses the Nicene Creed”. So something extra biblical, and thus should not have sway if you are sola scriptura. Yet it does. And I don’t agree at all about the Nicene creed. The zeroth order is “do they purport to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ?” It’s in the name. People were called Christians even before there was such a creed, as revealed in the Bible itself. I still find all the need to create doctrinal clarity on something not in the Bible that wouldn’t affect anyone in any way to be dumb, and consider it a dumb part of how Christianity developed. When doctrinal differences change practices, then it can matter. But Paul said not to quibble about the small things–and at least he was talking about things actually in the Bible. Nothing in the Bible indicates a need to believe in the Trinity to be saved, so it is inherently unimportant. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/43 "2017-08-22T16:29:26Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I’m honestly not sure how a Hasidic family would view one of their own becoming non-Hasidic but remaining Orthodox. I think they’d generally be OK with it, but I couldn’t say for certain. I know I recently read a study about this. Most Hasidim who leave the Hasidic life do not stay observant; they tend to reject Judaism completely. If I can find a cite later, I will post it. Most Hareidi families have a problem with a family member leaving their world for a secular life; it reflects back on the family, and may cause problems in other areas (for example, in finding wedding matches for their remaining single children). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/44 "2017-08-22T16:39:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So something extra biblical, and thus should not have sway if you are sola scriptura. Yet it does. > > And I don’t agree at all about the Nicene creed. The zeroth order is “do they purport to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ?” It’s in the name. People were called Christians even before there was such a creed, as revealed in the Bible itself. > > I still find all the need to create doctrinal clarity on something not in the Bible that wouldn’t affect anyone in any way to be dumb, and consider it a dumb part of how Christianity developed. When doctrinal differences change practices, then it can matter. But Paul said not to quibble about the small things–and at least he was talking about things actually in the Bible. > > Nothing in the Bible indicates a need to believe in the Trinity to be saved, so it is inherently unimportant. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is in the Bible (it’s in the Great Commission, toward the end of Matthew’s Gospel). People were also called Christian before there was a _Bible_ (unless you subscribe to the theory that the apostles were taking notes during the lifetime of Jesus himself), so I’m not sure what your point is. And the majority of Christians in the world aren’t in one of the sola scriptura traditions anyway. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/45 "2017-08-22T23:32:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > FWIW the Lovely and Talented Mrs. **Shodan** was raised Roman Catholic, married me, and is now a Lutheran pastor. > > I didn’t try to convert her, it just sort of happened. But it wasn’t a big deal because the doctrinal differences between Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism were never important to either of us. We were both Christian before, we are both Christian now. > > My family didn’t care, and her family took their cues from my brother-in-law, who is a Roman Catholic bishop and is fine with it. And now Pope Franky is trying to pull us back together! When I broke to dropmom that we were raising the kids Evangelical Lutheran instead of RCCan she said, “That’s nice. I was going to suggest Episcopalian.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/46 "2017-08-23T11:03:04Z")
Here’s a list of the divisions of Christianity. As Pleonast points out, there are other divisions beyond Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches. There are the Oriental Orthodox churches, which includes the Armenian Christians that Pleonast mentioned. There are less than as third as many members of them in the world as there are members of the Eastern Orthodox churches, less than a ninth as many members in the world as there are members of the Protestant churches, and less than a sixteenth as many of them as there are of members of the Catholic church. This is why I usually give up after telling other Americans that besides Catholics and Protestants, there are the Eastern Orthodox, which some Americans know nothing about. I could also mention the Oriental Orthodox and the Nestorians, which most Americans know nothing about. And some tables like the one below split off the Anglican church from the Protestants. And then there are churches not included in any of those like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, the Christian Scientists, the Unitarians, and a bunch of even smaller churches about which I know nothing. > **[List of Christian denominations by number of members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members)** > > Percent of Christian population that is: > This is a list of Christian denominations by number of members. It is inevitably partial and generally based on claims by the denominations themselves. The numbers should therefore be considered approximate and the article an ongoing work-in-progress. > The list includes the following Christian denominations: the Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches, all the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches with some recognition and th... ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/47 "2017-08-27T10:32:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > …Inicdentally, for those with experience. How does converting for the sake of marriage actually work? I don’t mean the mechanics, more the internal processing of it. > Does the convertee have to convince themselves that their previous faith was nonsense and the new faith is suddenly correct? … My parents were both technically fundamentalist. That is, they believed that there were a small number of fundamental Christian beliefs, and that the rest was open personal choice. (Including the choice to belong to a church which authoritatively specified everything) And the RC church has authoritative rules for the conduct of mixed marriages. You don’t have to abandon your beliefs. So changing churches doesn’t always mean changing faiths. But when you /do/ change faiths… it’s like changing political parties. It’s more likely to be the result of personal changes than the cause of them. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/48 "2017-08-27T22:06:36Z")
I was raised Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, a pretty conservative bunch. My mom, at the age of 85, has just in the last few years become a voting member of the congregation, because up until then women weren’t voting members. I have two younger sisters. One became Methodist after marriage. Her husband was Methodist and rather than go back and forth the couple settled on that church. It bothered my dad just a little, but I pointed out to him at least she was still in a Christian church, not some cult. I switched to a different Lutheran denomination, the ELCA, when I decided women had equal standing before God. When I disagreed badly with a new pastor at the church, I looked for a new church home, and since 2000 have been an Episcopalian. I’d attended it’s services before, when I was in the Army and couldn’t get to a Lutheran church. I liked it, it wasformal and liturgical, as I like. I also liked what the priest said at introduction classes “Being Episcopalian means you don’t have to check your brains at the door.” My middle sister is a declared atheist, and that’s the only one that really gave lasting unhappiness to my dad, and mom too. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/49 "2017-08-27T23:11:30Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is in the Bible (it’s in the Great Commission, toward the end of Matthew’s Gospel). > > People were also called Christian before there was a _Bible_ (unless you subscribe to the theory that the apostles were taking notes during the lifetime of Jesus himself), so I’m not sure what your point is. And the majority of Christians in the world aren’t in one of the sola scriptura traditions anyway. Yes, it is. But so is baptism in the name of Jesus. Thus any interpretation that says one is right and the other is wrong contradicts the Bible itself. But baptism isn’t even what most of this was about. It’s far, far more specific than that. Baptism in the name of all three does not necessitate belief in the Trinity. The main arguments about the Trinity today are in Protestant sects. And Protestantism started sola scriptura. It is one of the foundational doctrines of the Reformation. So it is extremely important that they are saying these things about others who believe differently about the Trinity are not true Christians. Because they are violating their own stated beliefs. And even for those who aren’t _sola scriptura_, they still put the Bible first. And, by claiming these other people aren’t Christians, they are doing what the Bible says not to do. Tehir own rules do not override the Bible in any Church that actually believes the Bible is the Word of God. I don’t know how much more clear I can make that this whole thing is silly, and falls into Paul’s command not to pass judgement over disputable matters. Those who think it is important are Christian. Those who don’t are still Christian. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/50 "2017-08-27T23:14:20Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Here’s a list of the divisions of Christianity. As Pleonast points out, there are other divisions beyond Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches. There are the Oriental Orthodox churches, which includes the Armenian Christians that Pleonast mentioned. There are less than as third as many members of them in the world as there are members of the Eastern Orthodox churches, less than a ninth as many members in the world as there are members of the Protestant churches, and less than a sixteenth as many of them as there are of members of the Catholic church. This is why I usually give up after telling other Americans that besides Catholics and Protestants, there are the Eastern Orthodox, which some Americans know nothing about. I could also mention the Oriental Orthodox and the Nestorians, which most Americans know nothing about. And some tables like the one below split off the Anglican church from the Protestants. And then there are churches not included in any of those like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, the Christian Scientists, the Unitarians, and a bunch of even smaller churches about which I know nothing. > > [List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members) Most of those groups are still Catholic. They are Orthodox. They aren’t Roman Catholic, but they’re still Catholic. Or, at least, that is how I have always heard the term used. The main groupings are still Catholic/Protestant/Other. Catholic is largest. Then Protestant. Then Other, which is just a miscellaneous group. Even if we lump in the other Orthodox churches into Other, it still holds. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/51 "2017-08-28T00:36:47Z")
No, the main groups are Roman Catholics, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox. Yeah, so I consistently abbreviated Roman Catholic to just Catholic. You could also say that the main groups are Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Nestorian. The link that I gave splits off Anglicans from the other Protestants, but that’s not a typical division. I think that all of these groups would consider each other to be truly Christian. There’s also Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Unitarians, and some very small and obscure groups, all of which most of the main groups would say aren’t quite Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/52 "2017-08-28T10:01:43Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > When I disagreed badly with a new pastor at the church, I looked for a new church home, and since 2000 have been an Episcopalian. I’d attended it’s services before, when I was in the Army and couldn’t get to a Lutheran church. I liked it, it wasformal and liturgical, as I like. I also liked what the priest said at introduction classes “Being Episcopalian means you don’t have to check your brains at the door.” One of the beautiful things about the Episcopal church is its practices run the gamut from “low church” to “high church”. My family has always been “low church”. > [@BigT](#): > > Yes, it is. But so is baptism in the name of Jesus. Thus any interpretation that says one is right and the other is wrong contradicts the Bible itself. > > But baptism isn’t even what most of this was about. It’s far, far more specific than that. Baptism in the name of all three does not necessitate belief in the Trinity. > > The main arguments about the Trinity today are in Protestant sects. And Protestantism started sola scriptura. It is one of the foundational doctrines of the Reformation. > > So it is extremely important that they are saying these things about others who believe differently about the Trinity are not true Christians. Because they are violating their own stated beliefs. > > And even for those who aren’t _sola scriptura_, they still put the Bible first. And, by claiming these other people aren’t Christians, they are doing what the Bible says not to do. Tehir own rules do not override the Bible in any Church that actually believes the Bible is the Word of God. > > I don’t know how much more clear I can make that this whole thing is silly, and falls into Paul’s command not to pass judgement over disputable matters. Those who think it is important are Christian. Those who don’t are still Christian. QFT. Very well said. It’s a funny thing, to me, how the “sola scriptura” outfits really aren’t “only the Bible” in either practice or doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193/53 "2017-08-29T12:05:33Z")
> [@](#): > > And, by claiming these other people aren’t Christians, they are doing what the Bible says not to do. Tehir own rules do not override the Bible in any Church that actually believes the Bible is the Word of God. > > I don’t know how much more clear I can make that this whole thing is silly, and falls into Paul’s command not to pass judgement over disputable matters. Where do we find Paul’s command? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-religious-sect-changes-within-families-a-big-deal-for-most-folks/794193.md?page=2)