# Are Reuben sandwiches kosher? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132 "2016-09-28T18:01:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davey77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@davey77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davey77)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/1 "2016-09-28T18:01:46Z")
When it comes to keeping kosher, is a reuben sandwich (corned beef, swiss cheese, kraut, 1000 island dressing on rye bread) considered a kosher meal? I’m asking because this has always been something that bugged me. From my rudimentary understanding of a kosher diet, mixing meat and milk products is forbidden, yet I enjoyed a wonderful reuben sandwich at Lou & Hy’s Deli in Akron. My ignorance on the subject would stagger a team of oxen. Any help would be appreciated… ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/2 "2016-09-28T18:05:43Z")
A traditional reuben certainly would NOT be kosher. Mixing Swiss cheese with corned beef would be verboten. A true kosher deli would not serve ANY dairy products. But then, not all Jewish delis are, or even claim to be, kosher. ---
**Author:** ![davey77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@davey77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davey77)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/3 "2016-09-28T18:17:24Z")
Another question arises. Am I way off-base when I think a Reuben sandwich has anything to do the American Jewish culinary tradition? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/4 "2016-09-28T18:18:07Z")
Absolutely not. True kosher delis serve either meat or dairy, but never both together. That would be ‘treif’, which translates as ‘broken’ ETA: According to [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_sandwich), originals of the Reuben sandwich are in dispute. Probably the name “Reuben” gives it a Jewish feel. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/5 "2016-09-28T18:24:04Z")
> [@davey77](#): > > Another question arises. Am I way off-base when I think a Reuben sandwich has anything to do the American Jewish culinary tradition? > **[Reuben sandwich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_sandwich#Possible_origins)** > > The Reuben sandwich is a North American grilled sandwich composed of corned beef, Swiss cheese, sauerkraut, and Russian dressing or Thousand Island dressing, grilled between slices of rye bread. It is associated with kosher-style delicatessens but is not kosher, as it combines meat and cheese. > One origin story holds that Reuben Kulakofsky (his first name sometimes spelled Reubin; his last name sometimes shortened to Kay), a Lithuanian-born Jewish grocer residing in Omaha, Nebraska, asked for a s... Neither origin is proven, but both link to Jewish-American delis. There are lots of American-Jewish culinary creations that aren’t kosher. ETA- Ninja’d by **Annie-Xmas** but came to different conclusions so I think I’m OK. 🙂 Ask two Jews get three answers. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/6 "2016-09-28T18:27:31Z")
I take it that it is not forbidden for an observant Jew to cook or prepare non-kosher food, as long as they don’t eat it themselves? Is there any stigma associated with doing this? –Mark ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/7 "2016-09-28T18:36:06Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > I take it that it is not forbidden for an observant Jew to cook or prepare non-kosher food, as long as they don’t eat it themselves? Is there any stigma associated with doing this? > > –Mark My (admittedly limited) understanding is that a Jew wishing to keep to the laws of kashrut would avoid doing so in a business setting, because it is prohibited for them to “benefit” from certain categories of non-kosher foods. Selling such foods for money = a benefit. They could, arguably, give such foods as gifts though. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/8 "2016-09-28T18:42:49Z")
**Malthus** is correct. Any true kosher Jewish business establishment is certified as such by a rabbi, and must have the certificate hanging prominently on the wall. My store only sells dairy or pareve (not meat or dairy) items. We are forbidden from bringing any food into the store that is not wrapped or in a container. We can only eat food in the backbreak room. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/9 "2016-09-28T18:50:35Z")
In the kosher deli I ate at, when ordering a cheeseburger, the cheese came cold, on the top burger bun, on a separate little plate. But do note that a lot of Jewish people do not keep Kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/10 "2016-09-28T18:51:06Z")
Some of the kosher laws are phrased in terms of what can be eaten, but the origin of the no-meat-and-dairy law is a passage that says “Thou shalt not cook a kid in its mother’s milk”. Since the prohibition is against cooking, not just against eating, I expect that a Jew would not be allowed to prepare such a meal for a gentile, either, not even in a non-business setting. Of course, a Jew would also have no problem with gentiles preparing and eating such food themselves. Unlike many religions, Jews consider the vast majority of the Law to be binding only on them, not on anyone else (the only Laws non-Jews are expected to follow are the seven Noachide commandments, which most non-Jews follow anyway). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/11 "2016-09-28T18:58:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Some of the kosher laws are phrased in terms of what can be eaten, but the origin of the no-meat-and-dairy law is a passage that says “Thou shalt not cook a kid in its mother’s milk”. Since the prohibition is against cooking, not just against eating, I expect that a Jew would not be allowed to prepare such a meal for a gentile, either, not even in a non-business setting. > > Of course, a Jew would also have no problem with gentiles preparing and eating such food themselves. Unlike many religions, Jews consider the vast majority of the Law to be binding only on them, not on anyone else (the only Laws non-Jews are expected to follow are the seven Noachide commandments, which most non-Jews follow anyway). wiki: \*The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated are:[7] Do not deny God. Do not blaspheme God. Do not murder. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations. Do not steal. Do not eat from a live animal. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.\* Apparently it is of some value to a Observant couple to have a Gentile friend who follows those rules and can help out on the Sabbath. I have to say tho, a lot of people- Observant and gentile- arent always good at following “Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.”😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/12 "2016-09-28T19:01:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Some of the kosher laws are phrased in terms of what can be eaten, but the origin of the no-meat-and-dairy law is a passage that says “Thou shalt not cook a kid in its mother’s milk”. Since the prohibition is against cooking, not just against eating, I expect that a Jew would not be allowed to prepare such a meal for a gentile, either, not even in a non-business setting. This is true; a Jew cannot cook milk in meat. Here’s an actual Rabbi on the subject. > **[Baby-Sitter's Jitters](https://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/112/Q1/)** Apparently, that’s the only example, though. Otherwise, a Jew may cook non-kosher food for a non-Jew. The problem is, since the prohibition passes on to the dishware, it effectively makes cooking anything problematic in a non-Kosher kitchen: > [@](#): > > With one exception, it’s permitted to cook non-kosher food. That exception is milk and meat. “Don’t cook a kid in its mother’s milk” means the very act of cooking milk and meat is prohibited, even if you don’t plan to eat it. > > This prohibition can apply even to milk and meat absorbed into cooking utensils. A pot owned by someone who doesn’t keep kosher probably has milk and meat absorbed into the substance of the pot. So even if the food itself contains no milk and meat, your daughter is forbidden to heat it up using the family’s cook-wear. > [@](#): > > Of course, a Jew would also have no problem with gentiles preparing and eating such food themselves. Unlike many religions, Jews consider the vast majority of the Law to be binding only on them, not on anyone else (the only Laws non-Jews are expected to follow are the seven Noachide commandments, which most non-Jews follow anyway). Yup. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/13 "2016-09-28T19:40:44Z")
Reuben’s Kosher deli in Boston makes the best roast beef sandwiches that I have ever eaten, but no Reuben sandwiches. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/14 "2016-09-28T19:49:36Z")
‘Thou shalt not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.’ That looks like a pretty nice loophole. A kid is a young goat. So as long as you don’t cook a young goat in its mother’s milk, you should be good. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/15 "2016-09-28T20:16:22Z")
> [@](#): > > We are forbidden from bringing any food into the store that is not wrapped or in a container. We can only eat food in the backbreak room. Why is that, if I may ask? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/16 "2016-09-28T20:28:52Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > Why is that, if I may ask? Probably cross contamination. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/17 "2016-09-28T22:23:53Z")
Several posters have already given excellent answers, so I’ll just add that kosher-observant people who really want this kind of stuff badly (such as me) can take comfort in the many varieties of vegetarian meat and vegetarian cheese that are on the market nowadays. Many of them are certified pareve and can therefore be eaten together with the other kind. For example, Morningstar Farms makes several varieties of fake meat, and I love a slice of melted cheese on top of it. Or I’ll put a slice of Dalya brand fake cheese on a realburger. This is not a plug for those brands - there are many out there, and they taste more and more like the real thing with each passing year. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/18 "2016-09-28T22:51:57Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Several posters have already given excellent answers, so I’ll just add that kosher-observant people who really want this kind of stuff badly (such as me) can take comfort in the many varieties of vegetarian meat and vegetarian cheese that are on the market nowadays. Many of them are certified pareve and can therefore be eaten together with the other kind. For example, Morningstar Farms makes several varieties of fake meat, and I love a slice of melted cheese on top of it. Or I’ll put a slice of Dalya brand fake cheese on a realburger. This is not a plug for those brands - there are many out there, and they taste more and more like the real thing with each passing year. FWIW, I’m a vegetarian because I don’t like meat, and that’s the long and short of it, but there are several fake meat products I like. I love Tofurky, and I hate turkey. I love soy dogs, and I hate hot dogs. I love soy bacon, and the smell of actual bacon cooking nauseates me. And yes, I actually did taste bacon once. I found it disgusting, and was sorry I tried it. It was the texture more than the taste. How is it that the stuff is so popular? The only thing more disgusting than bacon was caviar. I _HATE_ caviar. Just the sight of it makes me gag. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/19 "2016-09-29T00:58:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Johnny L.A.** : > > That looks like a pretty nice loophole. A kid is a young goat. So as long as you don’t cook a young goat in its mother’s milk, you should be good. The Law as actually observed is in many cases considerably more restrictive than what’s set down in Scripture. Partly, this is from interpretations of what the Scripture “really means”, and partly it’s from the practice of “building a fence around the Torah”, following more restrictive human-made laws to make it more difficult to accidentally break the God-given Laws. Of note, many (though not all: As they say, two Jews, three answers) authorities would even prohibit things which _appear_ to violate the Laws, such as **Keeve** ’s vegetarian meat/cheese substitutes. The thinking is that, if **Keeve** is known to be a righteous man, and another Jew sees him eating what appears to be a cheeseburger, then that other Jew might be misled into thinking that a cheeseburger is OK. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/20 "2016-09-29T01:33:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of note, many (though not all: As they say, two Jews, three answers) authorities would even prohibit things which _appear_ to violate the Laws, such as **Keeve** ’s vegetarian meat/cheese substitutes. The thinking is that, if **Keeve** is known to be a righteous man, and another Jew sees him eating what appears to be a cheeseburger, then that other Jew might be misled into thinking that a cheeseburger is OK. Surely not! There are Kosher fake bacon bits. After discussion on the SDMB, I convinced my Wife enough that she asked a Rabbi about fowl and dairy. He responded, “No hen ever nursed her chicks”. Most Jewish things I have encountered are a way to legally find find print to avoid the worst laws, like burning for adultery. A suicide cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery, but if he committed suicide, he was obviously insane and not responsible for his actions. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132.md?page=2)