# Are Reuben sandwiches kosher? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132 "2016-09-28T18:01:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/41 "2016-09-29T18:19:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No offense, I hope, but that isn’t exactly what I was asking. I was wondering why that specific prohibition would be applied to Gentiles. > > IIUC the command not to boil a kid in its mother’s milk was based on a fertility ritual performed by other groups in the Middle East. I can see how thus it would be forbidden to Jews, to keep them separated from other religious/ethnic groups in the region. I can also see why murder, or setting up a just society, would be equally likely to appear like something that Jews and Gentiles alike would be required to respect. And murder and injustice are common. > > But even if there have been instances of eating the flesh of a living animal, why would that stand out as something that is beyond the pale even for Gentiles? It seems oddly specific for a universal injunction. > > If it is “because God says so”, that’s fine. If there is anything else, I wonder what it is. > > Regards, > Shodan The logic of the Noahide laws is as follows: these were the commands given to Noah by God in the mythic story of his adventures. Given that Noah is (1) not a Jew (Jews did not yet exist at the time the myth is set in), (2) the ancestor, according to the myth, of all humanity, and (3) a famously ‘good righteous person’ (it is why he & his family was saved), it therefore follows that all humanity can be “righteous” if it follows these laws. That said, there is nothing beyond the laws themselves to explain why these particular laws were chosen. There are a lot of post-hoc explanations for this prohibition, and some even make a lot of sense. However, the fact is that we cannot know what was in the minds of those who wrote down the original Noah myth (or that of God, if you are a believer), and so why this prohibition exists. My favorite theory: that it was an early symbolic recognition that _unnecessary_ cruelty to animals was a moral wrong, and covers more that simply eating bits of them while they are alive. The notion appears to be ‘you can eat animals for your sustenance, but please ensure that, if you do, you do not cause them to suffer in the process’. By extension, other types of cruelty for fun ought to be avoided as well. But I admit that this is merely a favorite post-hoc explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/42 "2016-09-29T18:49:29Z")
Is a glass of milk OK with a hamburger? Or a malt? Reubens are awesome, have to have thick, dark crusty rye though. Thin tender corned beef, and I like to experiment with making Russian dressing. A couple dill pickles, and some sour cream and onion potato chips… And a tall glass of ice cold milk. Yum. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/43 "2016-09-29T19:00:49Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Is a glass of milk OK with a hamburger? Nope, can’t mix milk and meat. You have to wait 6 hours after eating meat before you can have dairy. There are different rules for eating meat after having dairy; some types of dairy require 6 hours, some require less time. As with all matters, there are exceptions, but those are the general rules. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/44 "2016-09-29T19:23:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But even if there have been instances of eating the flesh of a living animal, why would that stand out as something that is beyond the pale even for Gentiles? It seems oddly specific for a universal injunction. > > If it is “because God says so”, that’s fine. If there is anything else, I wonder what it is. > > Regards, > Shodan perhaps as something to demonstrate man’s place above other animals? In that region of the world I think they’d be familiar with larger predators taking prey; e.g. when a big cat takes down an oryx, the oryx doesn’t go quietly, nor does the cat always wait for it to die before chowing down. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/45 "2016-09-29T20:52:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The logic of the Noahide laws is as follows: these were the commands given to Noah by God in the mythic story of his adventures. Given that Noah is (1) not a Jew (Jews did not yet exist at the time the myth is set in), (2) the ancestor, according to the myth, of all humanity, and (3) a famously ‘good righteous person’ (it is why he & his family was saved), it therefore follows that all humanity can be “righteous” if it follows these laws. > > That said, there is nothing beyond the laws themselves to explain why these particular laws were chosen. Thanks. I don’t recall any enumeration of the seven laws in Genesis - is there discussion of why those seven in particular in the Talmud? Do we know when they were written in the Talmud? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/46 "2016-09-29T21:19:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. I don’t recall any enumeration of the seven laws in Genesis - is there discussion of why those seven in particular in the Talmud? Do we know when they were written in the Talmud? > > Regards, > Shodan The laws derive from picking through Genesis. For example, the law against eating the flesh of a living animal is found in Genesis 9(4) (the law against murder, Genesis 9(6), etc.). > [@](#): > > 9 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth. > > 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. > > 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. > > \*\*4 “But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. \*\* > > 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require. At the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; **at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.** > > \*\*6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made He man. \*\* [emphasis] This passage is also the basis for requiring courts and justice: “at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man”. It’s a bit of a stretch! Here’s an interesting Talmudic discussion, in which various commentators argue about what is included. > **[Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 56](https://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_56.html)** > > Talmud Online, zipped for download, searchable: Tohoroth, Niddah, Nazir, Horayoth, Sanhedrin, Sotah, Yebamoth, Shabbath, Kethuboth, Gittin, Berakoth, Baba Mezi'a, Baba Kamma, Baba Bathra, Nedarim, Abodah Zara Footnote 34 is interesting as to the “no eating live animals” commandment. > [@](#): > > These commandments may be regarded as the foundations of all human and moral progress. Judaism has both a national and a universal outlook in life. In the former sense it is particularistic, setting up a people distinct and separate from others by its peculiar religious law. But in the latter, it recognises that moral progress and its concomitant Divine love and approval are the privilege and obligation of all mankind. And hence the Talmud lays down the seven Noachian precepts, by the observance of which all mankind may attain spiritual perfection, and without which moral death must inevitably ensue. That perhaps is the idea underlying the assertion (passim) that a heathen is liable to death for the neglect of any of these. The last mentioned is particularly instructive as showing the great importance attached to the humane treatment of animals; so much so, that it is declared to be fundamental to human righteousness. [Emphasis] This is my ‘post-hoc’ explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/47 "2016-09-29T21:21:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I understand how the other six could be chosen as important, but is there explanation/discussion in the Talmud or elsewhere how the “don’t eat from a live animal” was chosen? > > Apologies in advance if this pushes us into GD, but “eating from a live animal” wouldn’t occur to me as something that needed to be avoided, at least in the same way as murder or blasphemy. “Well, a pig like that, you don’t want ta eat 'im all at once.” ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/48 "2016-09-29T22:51:15Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > “Well, a pig like that, you don’t want ta eat 'im all at once.” I love that joke, and tell it a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/49 "2016-09-30T12:14:21Z")
Thank, **Malthus**. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/50 "2016-09-30T12:20:31Z")
Well, never mind for a moment that shellfish are automatically non-kosher. Years ago, a chef appeared on TV (I think it was the Today Show) and showed how to prepare a lobster dish. He started by cutting the claws off a live lobster and then sauteeing them in olive oil while the lobster was still alive. So, it happens, at least occasionally, even now. ---
**Author:** ![Fleetwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fleetwood/32/271_2.png) [@Fleetwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fleetwood)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/51 "2016-09-30T12:55:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Reuben’s Kosher deli in Boston makes the best roast beef sandwiches that I have ever eaten, but no Reuben sandwiches. Did you mean Rubin’s in Brookline? [Bad news](http://boston.eater.com/2016/8/5/12385520/rubins-kosher-restaurant-brookline-closes), dude. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/52 "2016-09-30T13:32:00Z")
> [@Fleetwood](#): > > Did you mean Rubin’s in Brookline? [Bad news](http://boston.eater.com/2016/8/5/12385520/rubins-kosher-restaurant-brookline-closes), dude. Well hell. Not that I would have traveled to Brookline again. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/53 "2016-09-30T15:13:50Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Years ago, a chef appeared on TV (I think it was the Today Show) and showed how to prepare a lobster dish. He started by cutting the claws off a live lobster and then sauteeing them in olive oil while the lobster was still alive. But the prohibition, as I understand it, is against eating a live animal, not cooking it. Presumably after cooking the lobster was dead by the time it was eaten. Depending on where you draw the somewhat arbitrary lines between “slaughtering”, “preparing” and “cooking”, every animal is alive until some point in that process. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132/54 "2016-10-01T14:40:11Z")
“Blessed are the _cheesemakers_?” “It’s obviously not meant to be taken literally, it refers to any manufacturer of dairy products.” IIRC, the “kid in mother’s milk” was a dish prepared by some neighbours of the Israelites, so the prohibition was also to distinguish them from the “barbaric neighbours”. The “thoroughly drain the carcass” ritual was also based on countering neighbouring religious practices which involved blood. The “no fins and scales” thing was to eliminate bottom feeders and parasites which typically ate garbage and rotting things -unhealthy. But there’s also a school of thought that the rules were set down by people with OCD and they disliked anything that didn’t fit their pattern; split hoofs and chews cud, has fur, eats grasses, good. Missing some of those categories (pigs) not good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-reuben-sandwiches-kosher/767132.md?page=2)