# Are roleplaying games a cool new technology? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [August 11, 2022, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476 "2022-08-11T12:00:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/1 "2022-08-11T12:00:46Z")
Continuing the discussion from [D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer))](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/573): One line stood out to me: > [@D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer))](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/573): > > They really caught lightning in a bottle. I wonder whether roleplaying games are more fundamentally _new_ than any other form of entertainment in the last century or so. Video games get all the “cutting edge technology” buzz, and from the pure viewpoint of the stuff used, sure. But in terms of how people interact with them, video games are mostly just continuations of board games (for multiplayer) or solitaire (for single-player), or novels (for those annoying RPGs that are like 50% cut scenes). And TVs and movies, of course, radically change the way we receive narrative–but even they feel like continuations of novels and serials. I’m unfamiliar with any entertainment in any culture prior to the 1970s, though, that’s like roleplaying games. That is, entertainment where: 1. Folks create a narrative 2. Semi-cooperatively 3. With each participant (save one) assigned a single protagonist 4. And their capabilities are limited by game rules and random chance. A wonderful writing instructor once told me that in crafting a paper’s thesis, “Don’t be obvious, and don’t be stupid.” It’s possible that my thread’s thesis–that roleplaying games are more qualitatively new than any other recent entertainment–is obvious, and it’s possible that it’s stupid. But maybe there’s something to discuss here. So what do y’all think? Are there clear precursors to roleplaying games that have those four elements? Is one of those elements not really emblematic? (I mean, sure the third one gets broken by a variety of RPGs, and you can quibble with each of the other three, but overwhelmingly I think they hold) Is there something else that’s more qualitatively new than RPGs? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/2 "2022-08-11T12:11:10Z")
Perhaps new entertainment, but certainly not new technology or even a new concept. Militaries have been wargaming in a fashion almost indistinguishable from modern RPGs since the 19th Century. > **[Kriegsspiel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsspiel?wprov=sfti1)** > > Kriegsspiel\[a\] is a genre of wargaming developed by the Prussian Army in the 19th century to teach battlefield tactics to officers. The word Kriegsspiel literally means "wargame" in German, but in the context of the English language it refers specifically to the wargames developed by the Prussian army in the 19th century. Kriegsspiel was the first wargaming system to have been adopted by a military organization as a serious tool for training and research. It is characterized by high realism, an e... ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/3 "2022-08-11T12:22:26Z")
It’s essentially playing make-believe, which has been going on since the beginning of humanity, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/4 "2022-08-11T12:28:14Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Militaries have been wargaming in a fashion almost indistinguishable from modern RPGs since the 19th Century. Gygax was a wargamer. As the story goes, his inspiration for D&D was when he wondered what it would be like if each player controlled only a single soldier rather than abstracting large-scale combat. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/5 "2022-08-11T12:30:56Z")
I listed the emblematic components of gaming for just this reason: > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Militaries have been wargaming in a fashion almost indistinguishable from modern RPGs since the 19th Century. Wargames lack the second and third components (“semi-cooperatively” and “each participant assigned a single protagonist”). They are overwhelmingly competitive, and each participant controls an army. > [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s essentially playing make-believe, which has been going on since the beginning of humanity, at least. Make-believe lacks #4 (limits on capabilities described by rules, and random chance). There may be cultures in which make-believe is limited by chance, but I’m not aware of them. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/6 "2022-08-11T15:01:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I wonder whether roleplaying games are more fundamentally _new_ than any other form of entertainment in the last century or so. The new thing about them was being able to buy a formal set of rules. People have been making up their own for much longer; probably ever since there were people. As @Acsenray said. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Make-believe lacks #4 (limits on capabilities described by rules, and random chance). There may be cultures in which make-believe is limited by chance, but I’m not aware of them. People playing make-believe make up their own rules; some groups of friends/family make up strict and/or complicated ones, others don’t. I’d be surprised if nobody’s rules ever included a random chance element. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/7 "2022-08-11T15:22:52Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > People playing make-believe make up their own rules; some groups of friends/family make up strict and/or complicated ones, others don’t. I’d be surprised if nobody’s rules ever included a random chance element. It’s almost certain that someone’s did–but although I know of many, many games of chance from different cultures, and I know that almost all humans have played make-believe, I’m not aware of this combination, especially with the other elements, as a persistent cultural feature. Not saying it hasn’t happened, and if it has–if, for example, Inca children had dice they threw as part of their games of make-believe, and changed the games based on dice rolls–I’d love to know about it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/8 "2022-08-11T16:39:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I wonder whether roleplaying games are more fundamentally _new_ than any other form of entertainment in the last century or so. I wouldn’t call role playing games a fundamentally new form of entertainment as games and make beleive have been around for pretty much ever. But D&D was a unqiue combination of make believe and war gaming that most Americans had never seen prior to 1974. Cool new technology? Sure. It combined existing ideas in a new and interesting way giving us a new form of entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/9 "2022-08-11T17:28:49Z")
Certainly kids create rule sets when they play make-believe, but they’re calvinball rule sets. Hence the “I shot you, you’re dead!” “Nuh uh, I have armor!” arguments that are a hallmark of that kind of play. D&D’s great innovation is the **combination** of individual fantastical roles (certainly already present in make-believe play), an impartial ruleset which the players must conform to (certainly already present in wargames and board games), and persistent character progress and development (certainly already present in storytelling mediums). ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/10 "2022-08-11T17:49:06Z")
The RPG is a synthesis of wargaming, cooperative tabletop gaming, and make-believe play. All of those things existed for a long time but nobody combined them into a single experience prior to D&D. I think that was the innovation and that it was indeed a brand new form of entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/11 "2022-08-11T19:55:42Z")
I think you and @Johnny_Bravo put it really well, and I’m curious whether there are other new activities quite like this. Even watching movies, as an experience, involves basically the same actions as watching plays. Are there other forms of entertainment that are fundamentally new combinations of activities in this way? ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/12 "2022-08-12T01:19:48Z")
As an interesting–at least I think so–aside, icosahedron dice existed even back in ancient Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/13 "2022-08-12T01:49:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are there other forms of entertainment that are fundamentally new combinations of activities in this way? Escape rooms, maybe? Wikipedia says the first modern one was an attraction at the 2003 Gen Con. They’re scavenger hunts with strong narrative elements mixed in, and even a bit of roleplaying depending on the room. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/14 "2022-08-12T05:51:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And TVs and movies, of course, radically change the way we receive narrative–but even they feel like continuations of novels and serials. They’re continuations of plays, which, obviously, are thousands of years old. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/15 "2022-08-12T08:10:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That is, entertainment where: > > 1. Folks create a narrative > 2. Semi-cooperatively > 3. With each participant (save one) assigned a single protagonist > 4. And their capabilities are limited by game rules and random chance. How is that not a game of Monopoly? 1. It’s a very limited narrative, but it’s there. 2. “Sure, I’ll give you a loan. For your station.” 3. “I want to be the top hat!” 4. “Roll a double or pay to get out” And I strongly disagree that video games are anything like solitaire. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/16 "2022-08-12T11:40:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s a very limited narrative, but it’s there. No there isn’t. Monopoly has a _theme_, but not a narrative. Some monopoly games may have narratives develop organically during play, but that’ll vary by group and is in no way a required element for the game. If somebody decides to roleplay an evil real estate tycoon, that’s fun, but it’s outside the intended scope of Monopoly. > [@MrDibble](#): > > “I want to be the top hat!” Monopoly figures are just game pieces, completely indistinct from one another except by shape. The game would play no differently with colored scraps of paper or differently shaped bundles of belly button lint. Players in D&D are meant to portray fully realized individual characters with unique skill sets who grow over time: session to session, adventure to adventure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/17 "2022-08-12T11:50:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > No there isn’t. Monopoly has a _theme_, but not a narrative. There’s a whole story about properties bought, taxes paid, fortunes won and lost, in every game. There’s a narrative. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Monopoly figures are just game pieces Spoken like someone who’s never sulked because they had to be the iron. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/18 "2022-08-12T11:50:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How is that not a game of Monopoly? > > 1. It’s a very limited narrative, but it’s there. > 2. “Sure, I’ll give you a loan. For your station.” > 3. “I want to be the top hat!” > 4. “Roll a double or pay to get out” Taken as a joke, this is pretty good, so I’ll take it as a joke. > [@](#): > > And I strongly disagree that video games are anything like solitaire. I’m focusing on how the entertained person interacts with the entertainment. In solitaire, you sit down and prep your entertainment materials, and then you start playing it by yourself, paying attention to what the entertainment materials show you and making decisions based partly on the materials’ displays to you and partly on your judgment about how best to win the game, based on the inflexible winning condition. You can choose to cheat if you get frustrated, and nobody cares. That’s not at all how a person interacts with movies or books or plays or a game of make-believe, and it’s fundamentally different from a game of checkers with an opponent, and it’s different from listening to or playing music or having a game of softball or going for a hike. But it’s basically the same thing as a single-player video game. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/19 "2022-08-12T11:56:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Taken as a joke, this is pretty good, so I’ll take it as a joke. It’s no joke. Roleplaying games are just a form of boardgame (more particularly, wargame) with more fluff. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m focusing on how the entertained person interacts with the entertainment. I don’t think I play Freecell the way you seem to. Or else I don’t play solo video games the way you do. Because i interact with those two very differently. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > inflexible winning condition I haven’t played a video game like that since 80s arcades. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476/20 "2022-08-12T12:05:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s no joke. Roleplaying games are just a form of boardgame (more particularly, wargame) with more fluff. If it’s not a joke, it’s a lot less funny and a real stretch (seriously, the top hat is a protagonist in a narrative? That seems like pedantic picking at my terms and frankly exhausting). It makes more sense as a joke. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I haven’t played a video game like that since 80s arcades. I’m playing Horizon Zero Dawn, and of course there’s an inflexible winning condition: complete the main quest line. Not sure what you mean. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-roleplaying-games-a-cool-new-technology/969476.md?page=2)