# Are school uniforms a good idea or a bad one? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110 "2017-04-09T12:56:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/101 "2017-04-13T22:22:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I have a lot of objections to the idea of uniforms but I do think that there are some points in its favor, namely— > > 1. Limiting clothing expenses for poor families > > 2. Limiting fashion-based competition between poor and rich students. Note my cites above, it does not accomplish either. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/102 "2017-04-14T02:03:36Z")
Speaking of variations, Argentina has a quite peculiar one in that the primary student uniform is a “dust guard”, a white smock/overdress ([female](http://www.uniformes-saber.com.ar/fotos/64_colegial17.jpg), [male](http://www.uniformes-saber.com.ar/fotos/54_colegial13.jpg)). And the teacher gets to wear a white or blue labcoat or smock. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Note my cites above, it does not accomplish either. And others have provided \*their \*accounts of when it has worked satisfactorily. Again, that there are situations in which it won’t work, or that it can be done wrong, has to be taken into account but it does not take it off the table altogether. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/103 "2017-04-14T02:07:08Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Speaking of variations, Argentina has a quite peculiar one in that the primary student uniform is a “dust guard”, a white (or, ocassionally, blue) smock/overdress ([female](http://www.uniformes-saber.com.ar/fotos/64_colegial17.jpg), [male](http://www.uniformes-saber.com.ar/fotos/54_colegial13.jpg)). And the teacher gets to wear a labcoat. > And others have provided \*their \*accounts of when it has worked satisfactorily. Again, that there are situations in which it won’t work, or that it can be done wrong, has to be taken into account but it does not take it off the table altogether. The plural of anecdote is not data. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/104 "2017-04-14T08:37:00Z")
“In my research, students indicated that there was a reduction in the bullying that they specifically saw occur at their school. In their responses, it appeared that bullying decreased with uniforms. In addition, there were large reductions in school police reports, referrals, and other disciplinary aspects.” [Jafeth Sanche](http://www.unr.edu/nevada-today/news/2013/school-uniform-study)z, research assistant professor, University of Nevada, Reno College of Education " Using a unique dataset from a large urban school district in the southwest United States, we assess how uniforms affect behavior, achievement and other outcomes. Each school in the district determines adoption independently, providing variation over schools and time. By including student and school fixed-effects we find evidence that uniform adoption improves attendance in secondary grades, while in elementary schools they generate large increases in teacher retention" [Gentile, Elizabetta; Imberman, Scott A. Journal of Urban Economics, 2012, Vol. 71](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094119011000611) "In 1998, The Journal of Educational Research (The JER) published an article by D. Brunsma and K. Rockquemore that claims that uniforms correlate negatively with academic achievement, but data presented in this article actually show positive correlation between uniforms and achievement for the total sample, and for all but 1 school sector. " from “[School Uniforms, Academic Achievement, and Uses of Research](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00220670309597509)” Bodine, Ann. The Journal of Educational Research, 2003, Vol. 97 In my reading, it seems you can find studies concluding both ways, depending on research design and the details of the uniform code, school district and general setting. And a lot of the studies _on both sides_ also dive into things like student and teacher _perceptions_, so it’s a bit disingenuous to repeat the old saw about anecdotes, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/105 "2017-04-14T19:13:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “In my research, students indicated that there was a reduction in the bullying that they specifically saw occur at their school. In their responses, it appeared that bullying decreased with uniforms. In addition, there were large reductions in school police reports, referrals, and other disciplinary aspects.” > [Jafeth Sanche](http://www.unr.edu/nevada-today/news/2013/school-uniform-study)z, research assistant professor, University of Nevada, Reno College of Education > > " Using a unique dataset from a large urban school district in the southwest United States, we assess how uniforms affect behavior, achievement and other outcomes. Each school in the district determines adoption independently, providing variation over schools and time. By including student and school fixed-effects we find evidence that uniform adoption improves attendance in secondary grades, while in elementary schools they generate large increases in teacher retention" [Gentile, Elizabetta; Imberman, Scott A. Journal of Urban Economics, 2012, Vol. 71](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094119011000611) > > "In 1998, The Journal of Educational Research (The JER) published an article by D. Brunsma and K. Rockquemore that claims that uniforms correlate negatively with academic achievement, but data presented in this article actually show positive correlation between uniforms and achievement for the total sample, and for all but 1 school sector. " from “[School Uniforms, Academic Achievement, and Uses of Research](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00220670309597509)” Bodine, Ann. The Journal of Educational Research, 2003, Vol. 97 > > In my reading, it seems you can find studies concluding both ways, depending on research design and the details of the uniform code, school district and general setting. > > And a lot of the studies _on both sides_ also dive into things like student and teacher _perceptions_, so it’s a bit disingenuous to repeat the old saw about anecdotes, IMO. How about the other aspects, while I dig into the research you cited? Or how about a thought experiment. Are uniform rules that are biased towards a white, heteronormative, christian, non-working class model the only one you would accept? For an example, I grew up in the 1980s when women tended to wear oversized teeshirts and I still obsessed about tapered jeans. Wouldn’t it be better to have famales wear berkas to desexualize the school environment? Why not require men to do the same? Why should a “preppy” corporate casual uniform be the standard? Why couldn’t’ districts just say “loose fitting clothing with capped sleeves and bottoms that extend past the knee” As courts have held that students generally have a right to express political views through their clothing. While private schools are not as restricted courts have found that wearing t-shirts supporting or opposing gay rights or wearing clothes that are in observance of their religion is a right. I would think that due to Gardner v. Cumberland School Committee limited these restrictions to cases where “it presents a clear and present danger to the student’s health and safety, causes an interference with school work, or creates a classroom or school disorder.” I expect that some school will be brought to court and that it will be found that uniforms infringe on the right to free speech and expression, and violates the standards in the Gardner case. ---
**Author:** ![Emergency911](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/43a26b/32.png) [@Emergency911](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emergency911)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/106 "2017-04-14T21:15:48Z")
Went to catholic grade school and high school. We had uniforms in grade school and really didn’t care either way. In high school we didn’t have a set uniform, but very strict dress code, never enjoyed the ties, and to make it easy on me, my mom bought me two different colored shirts and two different colored pants. Any combination of the shirt pants matched and my mom never had to worry about me mis matching things. (thinking back, it may have been my idea, but I don’t remember anymore). The last 20+ years, I have worked in public safety and wore a uniform every day. I owned exactly one suit, everything else was daily uniforms, dress uniforms etc. Still didn’t care either way. THEN, I get promoted into upper management. No more uniforms, I was just told to wear “business office attire”. So NOW, I think if you are going to require uniforms in school, then you better add some instruction on what matches and what doesn’t. (Partly kidding, but I still buy clothes that match most everything else I own and will ask my wife for advice). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/107 "2017-04-14T23:22:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The plural of anecdote is not data. Great phrase! I fully intend to steal it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/108 "2017-04-15T16:47:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why should a “preppy” corporate casual uniform be the standard? Where did I say anything about that being the standard? Here, the standard is “school uniform” - grey pants/skirt and white shirt. It’s unlike anything I’d call “business casual”, and anyone wearing it to an office will look like a lost job-shadower. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/109 "2017-04-15T17:32:00Z")
Right, and my school uniform was jeans, sneakers and a T-shirt; the only thing that made it uniform-like was the fact that it was a school T-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![CatandMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@CatandMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatandMouse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/110 "2017-04-15T17:50:57Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I am in favor of school uniforms for several reasons. > > 1. I went to one of the top prep schools in the country. Without uniforms, clothes would have been a distraction at best and at worst a constant tit for tat warfare over money and status. Uniforms removed that from the equation. Since the school served a wide variety of socio-economic strata, this was appreciated. We knew who had money, but we didn’t have to deal with it in calculus class. Within the gates, academics reigned. > > 2. Poverty. My sister teaches at a school where many of the students are from very poor homes. Limiting the dress codes eases the burden of the pocketbooks of those families. > > 3. Areas with high gang activity. A uniform reduces conflict in the school. No one is wearing colors, because everyone is wearing the same thing (at least that’s the hope). I understand the pro’s and the con’s, but that was not my experience as a single parent. It did not ease my pocketbook, it required me to purchase two wardrobes, and do twice the laundry. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/111 "2017-04-16T02:23:58Z")
Plussish: I learned how to tie a four-in-hand in my sleep. Definite Plus: I learned the beauty of a girl’s legs. Especially when she stretched the permissible. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/112 "2017-04-17T00:53:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Where did I say anything about that being the standard? Here, the standard is “school uniform” - grey pants/skirt and white shirt. It’s unlike anything I’d call “business casual”, and anyone wearing it to an office will look like a lost job-shadower. So you are telling me that grey yoga pants and a chiffon belly shirt would fit the definition? Or does it have to be a collared polo or button up and slacks? I assume you work East of the Mississippi, in much of the west that is “business casual” But I would also ask if men can wear skirts? Under current case law that would have to be an option. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/113 "2017-04-17T01:35:34Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Plussish: I learned how to tie a four-in-hand in my sleep. Had to wait for the Army for that. I entered catholic school the _last_ year they had ties and Mom altered and repurposed two of my dad’s old Post Office clip-ons 😃 > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I assume you work East of the Mississippi, in much of the west that is “business casual” Just to clarify: \*\*MrDibble \*\*is in South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/114 "2017-04-17T17:44:58Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Just to clarify: \*\*MrDibble \*\*is in South Africa. Ah yes, South Africa, at least in my industry is far more conservative on business dress (very limited sample set size) but that would describe the difference there. I was only in that country for 4 days so I have no idea if it was a special event or a private school but I saw students in ties, sweaters and jackets too. I can’t comment on the colonial implications, but I do understand why they would want to ban American flags in schools (due to the gang not politics). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/115 "2017-04-17T19:31:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Ah yes, South Africa, at least in my industry is far more conservative on business dress Social/cultural context is a factor for sure - thus **Alessan** ’s example, in generally ultra-casual Israel, where “uniform” is just the school t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/116 "2017-04-17T20:41:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So you are telling me that grey yoga pants and a chiffon belly shirt would fit the definition? No, there’s a standard school pants and a standard school shirt, they’re just not the preppy kind. > [@](#): > > Or does it have to be a collared polo or button up and slacks? Yes. That’s what makes it a “uniform”, it’s the same for everyone. > [@](#): > > I assume you work East of the Mississippi You could say that, yes… > [@](#): > > , in much of the west that is “business casual” “Business casual” here is chinos and no tie with your shirt. But, personally, I can (and do) wear boardshorts and a Cthulhu tee to work if I’m not actually meeting a client. > [@](#): > > But I would also ask if men can wear skirts? To school? I don’t know it’s ever been tested. To my work? Sure. I’ve worn a kikoi a couple times. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Ah yes, South Africa, at least in my industry is far more conservative on business dress Which industry? I work in IT, and we’re pretty damn casual. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/117 "2017-04-18T15:34:26Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Speaking of variations, Argentina has a quite peculiar one in that the primary student uniform is a “dust guard”, a white smock/overdress ([female](http://www.uniformes-saber.com.ar/fotos/64_colegial17.jpg), [male](http://www.uniformes-saber.com.ar/fotos/54_colegial13.jpg)). And the teacher gets to wear a white or blue labcoat or smock. In checkered versions, but those are quite common for the youngest kids in Spanish uniforms. My nephews’ kindergarten had the smocks (no further uniform), in four colored versions; their school has uniforms and the preschool version includes those same smocks, in blue. There are several schools in town which use the same smocks for preschool, with variations on which of the colors are allowed; if parents already know which school they’re trying to get the child into they’ll pick that particular smock for kindergarten as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/118 "2017-04-18T17:10:50Z")
I recently did an author visit to a local parochial school. They normally wear uniforms, but it was a special day during which they didn’t have to. The school librarian said their behavior was much worse on non-uniform days, but I have to say they were the best-behaved school audience I’ve ever had, and there must have been at least one hundred kids there. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/119 "2017-04-18T18:47:45Z")
Also think about this. When you put on some clothes, any clothes, do you find yourself also putting on a “costume” and an “attitude” or “personality”. Think of the people who wont watch their favorite sports team play on tv if they arent wearing a specific team shirt. Think of how your personality is when you wear say a Hawaiian floral shirt. Now think about how you feel when you dress formally like when putting on a formal business suit. With kids putting on a uniform its also about putting on the right attitude for learning. It’s like "Hey when I wear this, I am in “school mode”. They can be 2 totally different kids the minute they get home and take it off. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110/120 "2017-04-18T19:06:12Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > With kids putting on a uniform its also about putting on the right attitude for learning. It’s like "Hey when I wear this, I am in “school mode”. They can be 2 totally different kids the minute they get home and take it off. Having worn a uniform for five years, I can assure you this definitely was not true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-school-uniforms-a-good-idea-or-a-bad-one/784110.md?page=7)