# Are shotguns useful in the modern military arsenal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2001, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998 "2001-10-27T20:28:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/21 "2001-10-31T04:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boris B \* > > You could also hope that the simple momentum transfer effect would disrupt whatever your target was doing (i.e., a non-penetrating shotgun blast will at least be like a punch in the stomach). You’re kinda underestimating the force of a shotgun load, try comparing it to being hit by a 12 pound sledgehammer. I’m sorry I lack the proper math skills to tell you the exact force exerted by 1oz of shot at 900fps but it ain’t pretty. Several cops have been killed by shotgun hits that did not penetrate their vest but did shatter ribs badly enough to tear up lungs and or the heart. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Capn Crude_ > Scylla, are any of them allowed to move? And let’s not forget that, AFAIK, pistol rounds aren’t terribly effective at 100 yards anyway. Uh no, they are. It s difficult to successfully hit targets that far away but those bullets are travelling more than fast enough to kill. I’ll put me with my Beretta 92 FS up against a bolt action rifle at 100 yards. I will get 3-4 shots in to his one AND I know I can consistently put hits in a 2’ circle at 100 yards with my Beretta. Make that 200 yards and I would be willing to put my money on the rifle. The difference is ability to aim effectively, the longer sight plane of a rifle allows for a smaller margin of error. I would be happy to consistently land a bullet in a 10’ circle at 200 yards. A good rifleman will be able to put that same round in a few inches if he took the time to make the shot count. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/22 "2001-10-31T16:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*…or +5 Plate Mail of Etherealness. \*\* What if it were Vorpal shotgun? ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/23 "2001-11-04T22:09:25Z")
## I said: You could also hope that the simple momentum transfer effect would disrupt whatever your target was doing (i.e., a non-penetrating shotgun blast will _at least_ be like a punch in the stomach). [emphasis added] **drachillix** replied, > [@](#): > > You’re kinda underestimating the force of a shotgun load, try comparing it to being hit by a 12 pound sledgehammer. I’m sorry I lack the proper math skills to tell you the exact force exerted by 1oz of shot at 900fps but it ain’t pretty. Several cops have been killed by shotgun hits that did not penetrate their vest but did shatter ribs badly enough to tear up lungs and or the heart. Well, I was deliberately being vague to try to avoid this. I have no doubt that lungs and heart could be torn up by a close-range non-penetrating shotgun blast. I’ve also heard a story of a hunter accidentally hit by a shotgun blast from another hunter. He heard a shot, turned around, and got hit in the chest by several pellets from a shotgun. None of them penetrated his coat and he asked for an apology. Obviously the range was long. The range is key. That is what I was getting at when I said “at least”. Let’s keep it quantitative. Using the example of the 12-pound sledgehammer, and comparing it to a standard 1.25-ounce Foster slug or buckshot load, we can do some simple calculations. 1.25 oz. x 1600 fps = 2000 momentum (measured in ounce-feet per second, if you care). The sledgehammer moving a little over 10 feet per second has the same momentum as a shotgun slug at the muzzle. Certainly fearsome. When the drops the projectile velocity drops to half (as it would at widely differing range depending on type), you have to drop to a six-pound sledge or move it at 5 fps. ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2001, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/24 "2001-11-04T22:53:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lord Derfel \* > \*\*Boris B: > > > [@](#): > > > > Italian commandos went into combat on land clad in chainmail; > > Chainmail? Really? That’s interesting. Got any pictures/more info? \*\* I wish I did. I’ve been having trouble in Google searches on “First World War” since it always gives me links about the Second World War! Yes, I do include the quotes and capitalization; this is either a glitch with google or I do not understand how to do advanced searches on it. (Try using “Italian “First World War” commandos” (with only the inner set of quotes) to see what I mean.) There’s a picture of a Belgian soldier in an Italian-made breastplate, epaullettes, and helmet (and a very dashing moustache) page 6 of Osprey’s _Flak Jackets: 20th Century Military Body Armor_ by Simon Dunstan. Onto the “more info” part of your query. I have heard very little about this, so I am starting to think that I spoke too soon. Forgive me if I’ve blown a small anomoly of the Austro-Italian front out of proportion. Italy fielded a group of pioneers known IIRC as “Death’s Head” units. Pioneers, in this context, are somewhere between shock troops and combat engineers; the Italians called them _arditi_ and wrote songs about them. They are said to have been equipped with almost Medieval weapons and armor: chainmail, breastplates, daggers with extensive knuckle guards (which doesn’t that they had no firearms). Anyway, none of this is mentioned at [http://www.worldwar1.com/itafront/equip\_w.htm](http://www.worldwar1.com/itafront/equip_w.htm) or any other site I’ve seen, and the books I’ve seen it in are borrowed and vague in my memory. So maybe it was really uncommon. [http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n2/adriatic.html](http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n2/adriatic.html) says _Arditi_ were “the first storm troops—for infiltrating defense lines, clearing wire, and assaulting strong points. These units received special equipment, including body armor, special armored shields, extra grenades, and the first submachine guns to be issued on a large scale” ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2001, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/25 "2001-11-04T22:55:13Z")
I wonder what could be done with [smart bullet technology](http://www.snipercountry.com/bullet.htm) in a 12 gauge slug? Given the size of slugs, it would seen that this technology is perfect for shotguns. Generally speaking shotguns are close range weapons - some sabot slugs excepted. Therefore shotguns are best for guarding and defensive work. At close range nothing beats a shotgun with buckshot or a slug - yet. Going on the offensive requires a rifle. The H&K [OICW](http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/Pages/oicw_faq.html) may make every other rifle (and shotgun) seem primitive - until the smart bullet is deployed. Of course smart bullets could be deployed out of the OICW also. Here are some [pix.](http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm) The OICW will allow the soldier to lase the target and explode 20 mm. cannon shells right at the target distance. Defilade will no longer be safe. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2001, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/26 "2001-11-05T15:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*The H&K [OICW](http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/Pages/oicw_faq.html) may make every other rifle (and shotgun) seem primitive - until the smart bullet is deployed. \*\* Unfortunately, the [OICW](http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/fwframeset.html) is a classic case of crappy ergonomics. The poor grunts that have to test this thing pretty much hate it. If you’d like an idea of what it’s like to handle, grab a 3’ long slab of 8"x2" wood and hold it up to your shoulder, lug it around, and try and keep it close to you for a couple of days. There are some important ideas in the OICW, but H&K’s current implementation sucks. There is no reason I can see that a 20mm grenade launcher couldn’t have shotgun ammunition made available. It’s roughly the size of a 10 guage. ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/27 "2001-11-07T06:45:33Z")
[Here’s](http://www.michtoy.com/MTSCnewSite/figures_kits_folder/Fusiler_folder/Fusilier-Images/Other-Countries/GWI1.jpg) a picture of a fellow who’s armor could stop a shotgun blast. 🙂 And no, it’s still not chainmail but it certainly looks Medieval. Probably wasn’t very common though. ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998/28 "2001-11-07T06:53:20Z")
Ooops. I guess I didn’t give much background to that one. It’s from a company which makes toy soldiers; the picture is described as “Italian Arditi Suicide Squad 1917”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-shotguns-useful-in-the-modern-military-arsenal/89998.md?page=1)