# Are silent Ts becoming more prevalent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 1, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988 "2023-04-01T15:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/21 "2023-04-03T14:00:43Z")
Yep, same here. In spontaneous conversation, it’s “innernet” for me, as well. As for “writer” vs “rider” in my Great Lakes accent, the diphthong “i” is pronounced slightly differently. In the first, it’s more towards an “uh” sound, towards the back of the throat, while in the latter, the first half of the diphthong is more fronted, like an “ah” sound. So the latter is pronounced like “eye”, but the former is more like “uhye” (though perhaps not that far back) if that were a valid spelling. And, yes, the “t” and “d” are both voiced intervocalic flaps/taps there – no differentiation in the pronunciation. They get perceived as “d” sounds because of their voicing, but they are not your normal English “d” formed at the top of the tooth ridge, but rather a tap (as mentioned upthread) against the palate. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/22 "2023-04-03T14:35:42Z")
I never notice that I do this until I encounter someone who very clearly pronounces the Ts in words like “button” or “kitten,” because that sounds very grating to me, like how my friend’s wife who’s from the Pacific NW pronounces “roots” “ruts.” ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/23 "2023-04-03T15:00:27Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Heck, “can” doesn’t even rhyme with “can.” “I can do it” versus “Toss it in the trash can.” Those cans don’t rhyme That’s a matter of prosody and stress, yeah? I’m guessing that in the first sentence, _“I can do it”_, you’re replacing the unstressed vowel in “can” with a schwa: _“I c’n do it”_. Whereas in _“Toss it in the trash can”_, the stress is on the two final words, so they get fully pronounced; but you elide the vowel in _“it”_: _Toss’t in the trash can."_, yes? I once read that in any word longer than two syllables, an English-speaker will elide at least one vowel into a schwa. I bet something similar happens with sufficiently long sentences. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/24 "2023-04-03T15:08:35Z")
I haven’t noticed this before outside of some British movies or TV maybe, but I probably will start hearing it and being a bit annoyed by it. If it I hear it often enough it will just slip into that wide expanse of American accents. Seems more difficult to elide the sound when I try to do it so I’ll just keep pronouncing my Ts. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/25 "2023-04-03T17:15:31Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > That’s a matter of prosody and stress, yeah? I’m guessing that in the first sentence, _“I can do it”_, you’re replacing the unstressed vowel in “can” with a schwa: _“I c’n do it”_. Whereas in _“Toss it in the trash can”_, the stress is on the two final words, so they get fully pronounced; but you elide the vowel in _“it”_: _Toss’t in the trash can."_, yes? > > I once read that in any word longer than two syllables, an English-speaker will elide at least one vowel into a schwa. I bet something similar happens with sufficiently long sentences. Well, I’m sure we have some lazy pronunciations, and “c’n” may well be a go to. But if you were to ask me to articulate clearly the simple phrase “I can,” that would not rhyme with “Toss it in the trash can.” The former would have the soft a sound as in “sad,” the latter the vowel sound in “bad.” And I realize I’m explaining something in text that really requires sounds (“Wait, don’t all those sound the same?”), but if you’re familiar with the Philly version of the mid-Atlantic dialect, it’s all clear! 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/26 "2023-04-03T18:01:08Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > That’s a matter of prosody and stress, yeah? I’m guessing that in the first sentence, _“I can do it”_, you’re replacing the unstressed vowel in “can” with a schwa: _“I c’n do it”_. Whereas in _“Toss it in the trash can”_, the stress is on the two final words, so they get fully pronounced; but you elide the vowel in _“it”_: _Toss’t in the trash can."_, yes? > > > > I once read that in any word longer than two syllables, an English-speaker will elide at least one vowel into a schwa. I bet something similar happens with sufficiently long sentences. > > Well, I’m sure we have some lazy pronunciations, and “c’n” may well be a go to. But if you were to ask me to articulate clearly the simple phrase “I can,” that would not rhyme with “Toss it in the trash can.” > > The former would have the soft a sound as in “sad,” the latter the vowel sound in “bad.” And I realize I’m explaining something in text that really requires sounds (“Wait, don’t all those sound the same?”), but if you’re familiar with the Philly version of the mid-Atlantic dialect it’s all clear! 😄 Way-all, evruhbody knows awl y’all tawk funny up’air in th’ Nawth… 😁 That’s interesting. Unfortunately, your description doesn’t clarify it for me, because “sad” and “bad” have the same vowel in my accent, and I’m not familiar enough with a Philly accent to know the difference. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/27 "2023-04-03T18:12:04Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > The former would have the soft a sound as in “sad,” the latter the vowel sound in “bad.” And I realize I’m explaining something in text that really requires sounds (“Wait, don’t all those sound the same?”), but if you’re familiar with the Philly version of the mid-Atlantic dialect, it’s all clear! 😄 It’s those soft consonants that have clued people into my midlantic origins. I’ve got the Balmer Merlin elision combined with the multiple weird ways words can come out in Philly. It’s clear up here in New England where the words ‘don’ and ‘dawn’ are indistinguishable, among the other odd local accents in these parts. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/28 "2023-04-03T19:38:24Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > That’s interesting. Unfortunately, your description doesn’t clarify it for me, because “sad” and “bad” have the same vowel in my accent, and I’m not familiar enough with a Philly accent to know the difference. Maybe this helps (from Wiki): > [@](#): > > [Short-_a_ split](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//%C3%A6/_raising): As in [New York](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_accent) and [Baltimore accents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_accent), historical "short _a_ " has split into two phonemes: lax /æ/ (as in _bat_ ) and tense /eə/ (as in _bath_). Their distribution in Philadelphia along with Baltimore, however, is different from that of New York City. Generally, in the Philadelphia–Baltimore system, the vowel [/æ/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English) is [tensed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenseness) (towards [eə]) before the consonants /m/, /n/, /f/, /s/, and /θ/ in a [closed syllable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_syllable) (so, for example, _bats_ and _baths_ do not have the same vowel sound, being pronounced [bæts] and [beəθs], respectively), and in any words directly inflectionally derived from root words with this split…the three words _bad, mad,_ and _glad_ become tense, and irregular verbs ending in “-an” or “-am” remain lax. The words _mad_ (tense) and _sad_ (lax) do not rhyme in Philadelphia or Baltimore, but do for New York City and all other English dialects. These never help me, I’ll admit. æ? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/29 "2023-04-03T21:17:25Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > These never help me, I’ll admit. æ? Huh? Wikipedia does have a chart with recordings for each symbol, but there’s something about those recordings that my brain struggles with. Years ago someone posted a better example but I haven’t found it. > **[IPA vowel chart with audio](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio)** > > This chart provides audio examples for phonetic vowel symbols. The symbols shown include those in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) and added material. The chart is based on the official IPA vowel chart. > The International Phonetic Alphabet is an alphabetic system of phonetic notation based primarily on the Latin alphabet. It was devised by the International Phonetic Association as a standardized representation of the sounds of spoken language. > Within the chart “close”, “open”, “mid”, “f... ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/30 "2023-04-03T21:20:01Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > That’s interesting. Unfortunately, your description doesn’t clarify it for me, because “sad” and “bad” have the same vowel in my accent, and I’m not familiar enough with a Philly accent to know the difference. > > Maybe this helps (from Wiki): > > > [@](#): > > > > [Short-_a_ split](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//%C3%A6/_raising): As in [New York](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_accent) and [Baltimore accents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_accent), historical "short _a_ " has split into two phonemes: lax /æ/ (as in _bat_ ) and tense /eə/ (as in _bath_). Their distribution in Philadelphia along with Baltimore, however, is different from that of New York City. Generally, in the Philadelphia–Baltimore system, the vowel [/æ/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English) is [tensed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenseness) (towards [eə]) before the consonants /m/, /n/, /f/, /s/, and /θ/ in a [closed syllable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_syllable) (so, for example, _bats_ and _baths_ do not have the same vowel sound, being pronounced [bæts] and [beəθs], respectively), and in any words directly inflectionally derived from root words with this split…the three words _bad, mad,_ and _glad_ become tense, and irregular verbs ending in “-an” or “-am” remain lax. The words _mad_ (tense) and _sad_ (lax) do not rhyme in Philadelphia or Baltimore, but do for New York City and all other English dialects > > These never help me, I’ll admit. æ? Huh? 'Fraid not. I’m not fluent enough in IPA to make sense of that. Which leads to a parenthetical tangent - I was introduced to the IPA in an introductory linguistics class in college. It was a very basic introduction to the symbols, and explained their sounds by referring to English words: " ‘ɛ’ is a midfront rounded vowel: ‘pen’. ‘ɪ’ is a high front rounded vowel: ‘pin’." And such. I remember thinking, “Okay, well and good. But what if you’re from, say, East Texas, and you pronounce _pen_ and _pin_ with the same vowel? How do you know what the correct sound is?” I imagine that if you’re involved in linguistics sufficiently to have to deal with IPA frequently, you learn it in terms of how and where the sound is produced in the mouth, so you don’t need the helper words. But it sure is confusing to the beginner. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/31 "2023-04-03T21:25:40Z")
How do they pronounce “glottal”? gloh-ul? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/32 "2023-04-03T21:43:43Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > How do they pronounce “glottal”? Ironically, no glottal stop in pronouncing “glottal.” I just asked my wife, and we both pronounce it “gloddle.” I’m not sure if there’s a hint of a t in there, but there certainly isn’t a crisp t sound. Also not sure if that’s a common mid-Atlantic pronunciation or just a lazy t that might be found elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/33 "2023-04-03T21:48:34Z")
That’s how I say it here in Chicago. The “t” gets that [intervocalic flapping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping) I mentioned upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988/34 "2023-04-03T21:51:46Z")
Yes, I think that’s it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-silent-ts-becoming-more-prevalent/981988.md?page=1)