# Are So Many Americans Really THAT Ignorant (Heliocentrism, etc.)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130 "2010-09-09T02:03:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/61 "2010-09-10T17:53:35Z")
I guess my real question is where are these people? 20% is one out of five. I should be running into them all the time but I can never recall actually meeting anyone who thinks the sun orbits the earth instead of the other way around (ok…they technically both orbit a common center of gravity but too nitpicky for this). Granted it is anecdotal and I went to school and college and work with professionals who are likewise educated. Obviously I would not expect to find 20% of NASA workers to get that question wrong. Heck, I tutor kids from the inner city of Chicago and I have never seen them get this wrong either (and believe me this info is very unimportant to them). Taking all those people off the table that leads me to believe there are pockets of profoundly misinformed/uneducated people out there. Like I’d drive into some town populated by all these folks. I doubt that too so in the end I can only think these surveys are in some way fundamentally flawed. Either the people misunderstood the question (seems straightforward enough but who knows…maybe they were bored and not paying attention and mumbling “yes” or “no” with little thought) or they intentionally answer wrong just to be funny or…something. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/62 "2010-09-10T19:28:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I guess my real question is where are these people? My observation is that they concentrate in Alaska, Texas, and Rhode Island. Actually, I guess they don’t concentrate much, leading to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/63 "2010-09-10T19:35:20Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I came across [this](http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/08/24/dumb-things-americans-believe.html?gt1=43002) article. Once there, just go to page 6. Do twenty percent of Americans really not know that the earth travels around the Sun?! I guess they may all just be true Creationists (cf. [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament) article for an interesting (and short) angle on that). > > Anyways, what am I missing here? Do people really believe that (or are they just joking, for goodness’ sakes)? > > Thank you in advance to all who reply:) WTF!!! They signed the Declaration of Independence on August 2nd? July 4th is just when they drafted the final version?!?!? My junior high school American history teacher got that one wrong because I specifically remember him saying July 4th was the day when the Declaration of Independence was signed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/64 "2010-09-10T20:01:51Z")
I daresay the misconception in that case is the belief that the DoI didn’t become “official” until it was signed. It was formally approved on July 4th. The autograph-orgy involving just one particular copy of the text was just an incidental follow-up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/65 "2010-09-11T05:30:11Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > it doesn’t matter if someone tells you the _“Earth revolves around the Sun”_ or _“Sun revolves around the Earth”_ or _“a chariot is pulling a fireball across the sky.”_ They are all the same. (Maybe the 1-in-a-million geek who would stare at telescopes for years and notice the slightly irregular orbits would question it but that’s not typical.) 1-IN-A-MILLION-GEEK: “I’ve got it! To make the orbits perfectly regular, simply assume the sun revolves around the Earth and some of the other stuff revolves around the sun!” ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/66 "2010-09-11T09:10:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I guess my real question is where are these people? > > 20% is one out of five. I should be running into them all the time but I can never recall actually meeting anyone who thinks the sun orbits the earth instead of the other way around (ok…they technically both orbit a common center of gravity but too nitpicky for this). > > Granted it is anecdotal and I went to school and college and work with professionals who are likewise educated. Obviously I would not expect to find 20% of NASA workers to get that question wrong. Heck, I tutor kids from the inner city of Chicago and I have never seen them get this wrong either (and believe me this info is very unimportant to them). > > Taking all those people off the table that leads me to believe there are pockets of profoundly misinformed/uneducated people out there. Like I’d drive into some town populated by all these folks. > > I doubt that too so in the end I can only think these surveys are in some way fundamentally flawed. Either the people misunderstood the question (seems straightforward enough but who knows…maybe they were bored and not paying attention and mumbling “yes” or “no” with little thought) or they intentionally answer wrong just to be funny or…something. I agree. The idea that, in a random group of people in any Western civilisation, roughly one in three believes that the sun revolves around the earth is beyond ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/67 "2010-09-11T09:18:03Z")
The implication of heliocentrism strikes me as more important than the bare fact itself. It says “We are not the centre of the universe–Earth does not hold a privileged position.” Is it any wonder, then, that so many people deny evolution? So I see heliocentrism as being important because of its place in humbling humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/68 "2010-09-11T10:52:40Z")
I think it has more to do with the prevalence of smartasses, & the limitations of what polls can achieve. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/69 "2010-09-11T12:30:37Z")
Some posters have suggested that knowledge of heliocentrism isn’t necessary to most peoples lives. I would strongly disagree with this. If they vote, then this kind of knowledge is important to their lives, or at least to the lives of their children and grandchildren. If people don’t understand at least the basics of the relationship between the Earth and the Sun they’ll be confused about things intimately related to that like seasons and climate. They then can easily be confused about things like global warming, and vote accordingly. This is true about a number of scientific facts. It’s also true about geography, foreign nations, the structure and functions of our government, etc. I would contend that some basic facts are needed in a democratic society if we’re to enact sensible policies. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/70 "2010-09-11T13:14:15Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > I doubt that too so in the end I can only think these surveys are in some way fundamentally flawed. Either the people misunderstood the question (seems straightforward enough but who knows…maybe they were bored and not paying attention and mumbling “yes” or “no” with little thought) or they intentionally answer wrong just to be funny or…something. > > I agree. > > The idea that, in a random group of people in any Western civilisation, roughly one in three believes that the sun revolves around the earth is beyond ludicrous. I wonder if the surveys are actually finding smart people? I have never seen one of these surveys but I’ll toss out a made up example. Suppose the survey questions are standardized that all questions include “all of the above” and “none of the above” as a choice. So, you might get something like this: Which of the following is correct? A) The Sun orbits the Earth. B) The Earth orbits the sun. C) All of the above. D) None of the above. The correct answer there is “D”. The Earth and Sun orbit a common center of gravity (which, given their disparate sizes, is so far inside the sun as to give the appearance of the Earth orbiting the Sun). Not that the surveyors are stupid people but I can see how, when scoring these, the “common wisdom” of “B” being the correct answer would get scored as correct while “D” would be deemed wrong. For most things saying the Earth orbits the Sun is fine but I could see some geek types (such as myself) answering “D”. In that way the high percentage of “wrong” answers might actually be people getting the more accurate answer. Again just guessing. Like if you ask people what 1+2\*3 equals. Most would answer “9” and a lot of calculators would give that answer but the correct answer is “7”. Such things can easily slip through. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/71 "2010-09-11T14:47:07Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > How important is knowledge of heliocentrism, anyway? It’s not like Joe Sixpack is planning any ocean voyages or rocket launches. Beyond knowing that summer = longer days, what difference does knowing the mechanism make? > > Yea… kinda like history, algebra, grammar…or anything really; it’s not like they have any actual use. As long as he knows what button turns the TV on, he’s good. Don’t even need that, just leave it on 24/7 tuned to Fox ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/72 "2010-09-11T21:44:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Again just guessing. Like if you ask people what 1+2\*3 equals. Most would answer “9” and a lot of calculators would give that answer but the correct answer is “7”. Such things can easily slip through. But 7 is only “correct” because of the arbitrary convention of processing multiplication before addition. The test provided by the question isn’t of arithmetic skills - it’s more akin to a grammar question in which one is asked to put words in the correct order, when that order is just a widely-accepted convention. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/73 "2010-09-11T22:50:04Z")
If there were no other frames of reference, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Or, You tell me your speedometer tells you that you are speeding at 100 mph west and I’ll tell you that you are really travelling about 25000 mph. You ask me,“so what?” The fact is that our sun does orbit the earth from our own frame of reference which is far more relevant to us and our way of life than any other external reference. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/74 "2010-09-11T23:30:37Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You tell me your speedometer tells you that you are speeding at 100 mph west and I’ll tell you that you are really travelling about 25000 mph. You ask me,“so what?” You might have meant 1000 mph, if we’re talking about the Earth’s rotation, but that does remind me of a puzzle I’ve mused on. I recall a car commercial in which someone, parked, hums along to easy-listening music while watching a sunset. Then they put the car in gear and red-line it due west until the sun appears to rerise, letting the driver park and watch another sunset while listening to his (her? I forget) music. My question is: are there any east-west highways in Northern Canada (or southern Australia or South Africa or whatever) where a high-performance car could reverse a sunset? When I finished typing the above sentence, I decided to just look it up myself. It turns out that you’d be deeply into the Arctic or Antarctic before rotational speed was within the range of even a Formula One vehicle. [Source](http://www.thevlecks.net/rmj/earth.html) ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/75 "2010-09-11T23:36:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > When I finished typing the above sentence, I decided to just look it up myself. It turns out that you’d be deeply into the Arctic or Antarctic before rotational speed was within the range of even a Formula One vehicle. OTH, at 8000’, flying a C152 from Aberdeen to London in the very early morning, mid June, you can certainly prolong the sunrise. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/76 "2010-09-12T01:26:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I wonder if the surveys are actually finding smart people? > > I have never seen one of these surveys but I’ll toss out a made up example. > > Suppose the survey questions are standardized that all questions include “all of the above” and “none of the above” as a choice. So, you might get something like this: > > Which of the following is correct? > A) The Sun orbits the Earth. > B) The Earth orbits the sun. > C) All of the above. > D) None of the above. > > The correct answer there is “D”. The Earth and Sun orbit a common center of gravity (which, given their disparate sizes, is so far inside the sun as to give the appearance of the Earth orbiting the Sun). … And teaching this is so damned difficult … oh wait, it’s just an “Arts & Crafts” [project](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_%28sculpture%29) that not only can be used to explain what a [barycenter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter#Barycenter_in_astronomy) is, it can be used to explain leverage too. Or is learning about the simple machines too highfalutin? If none of this is really _that_ important to everyday life to actually learn, then why do we bother? Does it really matter that I got; it’s/its, wait/weight, too/to correct if you all would have understood what I meant anyway? Maybe we should scrap the entire school curriculum and get right to the important shit … burger flipping and fryer tending? ('Cause I guarantee the rest of the world ain’t gonna let us live the happy lives of the Eloi for long, and the price the Morlocks charge will go up. :() CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130/77 "2010-09-12T04:11:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I daresay the misconception in that case is the belief that the DoI didn’t become “official” until it was signed. It was formally approved on July 4th. The autograph-orgy involving just one particular copy of the text was just an incidental follow-up. Right - the voice vote of Ayes for adopting the final version means that verison was passed. Getting around to signing the corrected-and-proofread presentation copy does not detract from the passage. And I cannot acquiesce to just going along with “there’s no objective standard”. Some things just ARE a certain way. The _What the &^%^$ Do We Know_ approach to the world means that at any given time every competing version of the facts could be claimed to deserve equal consideration, and effort would need to be expended on not only pointing out a version’s flat out wrong or even is whack propaganda, but on “selling” the public on that your debunking has merit itself merely on the basis of how appealing a spokesman you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-so-many-americans-really-that-ignorant-heliocentrism-etc/553130.md?page=3)