# Are social media's recent bannings a freedom of expression issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330 "2021-01-12T14:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/322 "2021-01-19T00:06:06Z")
Well you offer no solution other than some hand waving nonsense about vague TOS that at the most charitable is shockingly naive about social media and modern internet culture. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/323 "2021-01-19T12:59:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That’s a creative interpretation. Where did I go astray? You said you wouldn’t be satisfied with a ToS drafted to clarify that the company had broad rights to autonomously decide who uses their (free) own service and equipment. This does imply that only government-approved ToS would apply. You further stated that you’d be interested in regulating how they applied whatever terms did end up in effect, putting the government in that position. That’s why I posed the question as I did, to see if people are willing to stand by their proposal when it begins to look like concrete law that dictates how private property can be used. It’s easy to say “this situation needs to be fixed and I refuse to consider second-order effects or necessary legislation.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/324 "2021-01-19T13:52:45Z")
I have a hard time believing you have read what I wrote. And my spending any energy repeating it has me questioning my judgement. Here though- > [@DSeid](#): > > … I would propose a legal remedy that gives broad 1A consistent guardrails to what the platforms ToS can look like, impose upon the platforms an obligation to implement their ToS as consistently as possible, and to have a process in place to do that which includes some appeal process. > [@DSeid](#): > > The major target of this remedy is the inconsistency and arbitrariness of rules application. > [@DSeid](#): > > The 1A issue is the right of the company to decide what it allows or does not allow to be expressed. The issue is protecting those rights while facilitating a balance of control over hate speech/ disinformation and protecting the voices of dissent. 1A would prevent forcing a private company to host hate speech or dissent. Clear ToS consistently enforced with a transparent process though achieves the minimum of giving users and consumers knowledge over what they are actually signing in to. If you have any comments that address what has actually been said let me know. Otherwise buh bye. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/325 "2021-01-19T14:03:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > If you have any comments that address what has actually been said let me know. Okay, fine. > [@DSeid](#): > > I would propose a legal remedy that gives broad 1A consistent guardrails to what the platforms ToS can look like, impose upon the platforms an obligation to implement their ToS as consistently as possible, and to have a process in place to do that which includes some appeal process. As I said, if we put the force of law behind what you wrote above, then you want Twitter only to have a government-approved ToS, and have a government-approved appeal process, and have the government regulate that process as well. Would it stop at social media companies? Why would it? I want a transparent explanation from Fox why they won’t let me call into their morning show. I want a transparent process that accounts for why my newspaper doesn’t publish my letters to the editor (and why it always gets delivered late on Tuesdays). And I assume this would all be at the company’s expense? I can see why you’d want to stick to your quoted text and run away from the implications of it. In practice this opens up a huge, expensive Pandora’s box of unintended consequences that nobody really wants to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/326 "2021-01-19T14:55:24Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > if we put the force of law behind what you wrote above, then you want Twitter only to have a government-approved ToS, and have a government-approved appeal process, and have the government regulate that process as well. The strength possible to that force of law is very limited, constrained as it is by to platforms’ 1A protections. If you have concerns that other media companies might have government regulation consistent with 1A as well, well been the case for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/327 "2021-01-19T20:15:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > ’m not sure an employer’s ability to fire you for speech expressed outside of the workplace is the subject of this thread much, but no, they don’t. That is not related to what I said, I think that you entirely misunderstood what @Demontree said there. What was said was that you could go to the police and complain without evidence. I was pointing out that the words that you used would be evidence. You seem to be talking about something entirely different, as you seem to have not understood the context that @DemonTree was talking about. > [@DSeid](#): > > Profit loss expectations given public opinion wind blowing and knowledge that he will soon no longer be president. Except that they actually took quite a loss when they dropped him. > [@DSeid](#): > > You do notice that he still is for a few more days and had been much more explicitly horrific previously? This wasn’t the first time that he led an insurrection on the Capitol? Please go on… Twitter was _very_ clear with their reasoning behind letting him post when he was breaking rules that they would have banned a regular user, and they were very clear as to how and when he crossed the line that his position wasn’t enough to protect him from. You may not agree with their reasoning, but that just means that the remedy that you claim to seek would not satisfy you, as the remedy you claim to seek is exactly what has been done. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/328 "2021-01-19T20:36:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > No, it’s for jobs like teacher or childminder or doctor. They are not going to be interviewing your friends and hearing about quarrels with your neighbours, that’s beyond absurd. You are talking about a job that would go around and ask each police precinct if you had ever had a complaint about a non-criminal act. And still what you are complaining about here is entirely outside the scope of this thread. We are talking about whether or not twitter banning people calling for an insurrection is a “freedom of expression” issue, not whether or not people should be allowed to take into account complaints about racist or violent speech that someone has complained about. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I never said it did. It was a reply to a different question, and no it isn’t a desire to never see any consequences. It’s a desire to have the same protection _you_ enjoy from the 1st amendment. You are right, I _did_ ask you what you were talking about when you brought that up out of the blue. I’m sorry to have assumed that you had any sort of relevant point you were trying to make there. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Perhaps you could make an argument as to why it doesn’t work rather than merely stating it? It’s a bit like when you use blueberries in a soufflé. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Of course not, but you already knew that. The SDMB banning you does not deplatform you either. It is only when one platform dominates the conversation, or a few do but all push the same message, that it becomes an issue. So, it is all about the audience then, not about the speech. Good to hear you finally come to that conclusion. > [@DemonTree](#): > > The same thing can happen if one company owns too many media outlets - the owner gets to choose what information other people are exposed to and the slant it is given. I assume you mean social media outlets. And yeah, that is part of the function of the first amendment that you seem to care so much about, that private companies don’t have to carry violent or hateful speech if they don’t want to. > [@DemonTree](#): > > So hypothetically, _if_ the government deplatformed you Once again, you keep coming back to the government for some reason. Do you understand the concept that the government is different than a private company? It really seems you don’t, since you keep trying to ask this same question in multiple different ways, and it will always have the same answer. > [@DemonTree](#): > > would that be a problem or totally fine? You know that there’s a whole world worth of excluded middle. Nazis marching in the street is neither a problem, nor is totally fine. Do you understand this? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/329 "2021-01-19T20:38:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That is not related to what I said, I think that you entirely misunderstood what @Demontree said there. What was said was that you could go to the police and complain without evidence. I was pointing out that the words that you used would be evidence. What I meant is that there is no standard your words have to meet for the non-crime hate incident to be recorded as such. Just the accusation is enough. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/330 "2021-01-19T20:39:28Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Would it stop at social media companies? Why would it? I want a transparent explanation from Fox why they won’t let me call into their morning show. I want a transparent process that accounts for why my newspaper doesn’t publish my letters to the editor (and why it always gets delivered late on Tuesdays). And I assume this would all be at the company’s expense? And it would also mean that rather than complaining in ATMB about “unfair moderation”, they would instead go running to the government body in charge of ensuring fair moderation. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/331 "2021-01-19T20:44:23Z")
But the words would be there as well, right? So when you go in for your job, and they go check up on you, and they call around to the police stations to see if anyone has complained about your social media activity, are you saying that the police just say, “Yes.” and they don’t actually say what it _was_ that got you your complaint? Whoever is doing this background check can very well evaluate for themselves whether or not your words come from someone that they want to employ. If your neighbor complains about you playing your music too loudly, there will be a record of that as well. Once again, you have failed to explain what this has to do with social media banning hatespeech and how that is an issue of freedom of expression, but you have doubled down on the fact that what “freedom of expression” means to you is expression that is free from any consequence. You will never get that. And you shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/332 "2021-01-19T21:12:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Once again, you have failed to explain what this has to do with social media banning hatespeech and how that is an issue of freedom of expression, but you have doubled down on the fact that what “freedom of expression” means to you is expression that is free from any consequence. I already told you it has nothing to do with social media, it was a reply to this comment: > [@asahi](#): > > Other countries have a more limited view of free speech than we do, and guess what – they are demonstrably freer societies than we are. I said we are freer in some ways and less free in others, and gave this as an example. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So when you go in for your job, and they go check up on you, and they call around to the police stations to see if anyone has complained about your social media activity, are you saying that the police just say, “Yes.” and they don’t actually say what it _was_ that got you your complaint? They don’t call around the police stations. Your post still shows no understanding of this issue. DBS checks are a formal process supposed to allow employers to find out if prospective employees have relevant criminal convictions. The enhanced check would mostly be used for people working with children or vulnerable adults. And I don’t know, but I very much doubt the police are going to show employers details of your tweets. AIUI a DBS check would be more like ‘convicted of X crime on Y date’, ‘received a caution for doing W on Z date’. It would probably be against data protection laws to give details. And a music complaint wouldn’t be on there unless the police took some kind of formal action against you, which you would know about. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > but you have doubled down on the fact that what “freedom of expression” means to you is expression that is free from any consequence. That is NOT what it means to me. I am talking here about a law that would be forbidden by your own 1st amendment, and how that makes us less free. Would you repeal that amendment if you could? If not then don’t attack me for supporting it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/333 "2021-01-22T10:32:17Z")
The problem is that social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter, and Google act as a combination of utility (like the phone, water, or power company) and content provider (like traditional broadcasting companies). That is to say, they make their money off advertising linked to content. That content, however, is largely unregulated and unfiltered as it would be with traditional cable television or radio. So the question becomes what responsibility do these companies have, if any, to curate the content that is transmitted via their platform? Another question is to what extent should these companies be getting involved in politics? Most reasonable people seem to agree with these companies preventing the POTUS from fomenting sedition. But they were also praised for enabling BLM and Arab Spring protests. Should multi-billion dollar companies be in a position where they get to decide which protests to support and which ones to shut down? What prevents them from making those decisions based on their own self interests and then using their various algorithms to curate content for your news stream that provides a supporting narrative? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/334 "2021-01-22T11:15:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Most reasonable people seem to agree with these companies preventing the POTUS from fomenting sedition. But they were also praised for enabling BLM and Arab Spring protests. Well did they break the terms of use? A point many analyses miss, is that Trump’s behavior would have got any normal person banned a long time ago, so those advocating for not banning Trump (which is not your position, I know) are really advocating for special treatment for him. Meanwhile calls for peaceful protest probably don’t break their terms of use. In terms of your point about FB et al being too powerful, I agree, but I think that’s an issue of anti Monopoly regulation / anti trust and is bigger than just concerns on freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/335 "2021-01-23T16:01:50Z")
A couple of days ago Twitter suspended four prominent Antifa accounts. Next up, BLM? > **[Twitter suspends ‘Antifa’ accounts with more than 71K followers](https://nypost.com/2021/01/22/twitter-suspends-antifa-accounts-with-over-71k-followers/)** > > Twitter has suspended several popular accounts with alleged ties to Antifa — which have more than 71,000 followers combined — following the Inauguration Day riots. At least four account… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/336 "2021-01-23T16:17:55Z")
If they promoted violence, I have no problem with this. But that article is terrible and provides pretty much zero actual information (par for the course for the NY Post), referencing notorious bigot (and liar) Andy Ngo, so who knows what actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/337 "2021-01-24T22:52:20Z")
> **[Twitter suspends fake antifa account tied to white nationalists](https://www.axios.com/2020/06/02/twitter-suspends-fake-antifa-account-white-nationalist)** > > The account's posts had been promoting violence. _# Twitter suspends fake antifa account tied to white nationalists_ Now you know not to trust the fucking NY post. > **[Twitter says fake "Antifa" account was run by white supremacists](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-fake-antifa-acount-white-supremacists-removal/)** > > The social media company says the accounts were used by white supremacists to encourage violence. Another acct suspended was The Base, which is a revolutionary anarchist group, not Antifa. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/338 "2021-01-25T09:11:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _# Twitter suspends fake antifa account tied to white nationalists_ > > Now you know not to trust the fucking NY post. These articles are both dated June 2020, so are clearly not referring to the same event. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Another acct suspended was The Base, which is a revolutionary anarchist group, not Antifa. If it’s an _anti-fascist_ revolutionary anarchist group, then it’s as much antifa as anything else. From Wikipedia: > **Antifa** ([/ænˈtiːfə, ˈænti(ˈ)fɑː/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English)) is a [left-wing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing) [anti-fascist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fascist) and [anti-racist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-racist) [political movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_movement) in the United States. It is highly [decentralized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized) and comprises an array of [autonomous](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance) groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of both nonviolent and violent [direct action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action) rather than through policy [reform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform). Perhaps if other media bothered to report on things like this, we’d have a better idea why Twitter banned them, and the NYP would have a few less readers. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/339 "2021-01-25T17:03:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > These articles are both dated June 2020, so are clearly not referring to the same event. As an aside, since I think you’re a Brit, we Americans think the _New York Post_ is sort of like the _Daily Mail_. Don’t rely on it alone for political or scientific opinions, or we may think less of you. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/340 "2021-01-25T19:49:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > As an aside, since I think you’re a Brit, we Americans think the _New York Post_ is sort of like the _Daily Mail_ . Don’t rely on it alone for political or scientific opinions, or we may think less of you. I was getting that impression. And it wasn’t a very illuminating article. But I couldn’t find anywhere else that reported it at all - just those old articles from last June that **DrDeth** later posted. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/341 "2021-01-26T04:31:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But I couldn’t find anywhere else that reported it at all - Nm, not worth it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330.md?page=18)