# Are social media's recent bannings a freedom of expression issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330 "2021-01-12T14:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/142 "2021-01-14T17:49:19Z")
Thank you, that’s a good summary. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/143 "2021-01-14T17:57:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This ignores the point that it is trivially easy to create your own “newspaper” at any time. It is far, far easier to create an internet platform than it ever was to start up an _actual_ newspaper. If that ‘newspaper’ does start to get a significant audience, one of the established social media companies will buy it up or freeze it out. A newspaper with no readers does not help the public square to contain a diversity of opinions and ideas. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/144 "2021-01-14T18:01:30Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > To @DemonTree and anyone else who thinks Twitter’s response is a restriction on Trump’s freedom of expression Other people do not have a government website to turn to. I’m interested in the general case, not Trump specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/145 "2021-01-14T18:08:57Z")
It’s almost trivially easy to set up your own website. There are a ton of blogging platforms where you can start posting in minutes. You can use non-blogging sites like github to create pages and posts. Twitter in no way has a monopoly on anyone’s freedom of expression. As I’ve said, Twitter was important to Trump because he made it so. If he had used Instagram or YouTube or [medium.com](http://medium.com) then those sites would have become important and nobody would care about Twitter. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/146 "2021-01-14T18:11:53Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > As I’ve said, Twitter was important to Trump because he made it so. If he had used Instagram or YouTube or [medium.com](http://medium.com) then those sites would have become important and nobody would care about Twitter. Yup. And there is a reason why he is not able to get around the grownups when he tries to use other media that he should have access. > **[Trump's Twitter Mentor Likens First Tweet To Terrifying 'Jurassic Park' Moment](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-twitter-manager-jurassic-park_n_5c1ccb6ae4b05c88b6f73f05)** > > “I was like, ‘Oh no,'" said the man who was then the Trump Organization's social media manager. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/147 "2021-01-14T18:13:14Z")
I got distracted and didn’t follow up here. > [@Jas09](#): > > We would be livid if you could only talk to people on phones on the same network, and those phone companies could kick people off the network if they didn’t like what they had to say. This is a poor analogy, as it is _not_ like a phone company. The ISP would be much more analogous, and that would be where getting kicked off would make someone livid. There is not “facebook internet” and “non-facebook internet” both operate on the same infrastructure. If someone is on facebook, that doesn’t prevent them from being able to come to your blog that you are hosting. A much better analogy would be like a conference call, where you might get kicked off the call for being disruptive. You can be upset that people don’t have to listen to you, but that’s really the other half of the idea of freedom of speech, is the freedom to not have to listen. You _cannot_ have one without the other. > [@Jas09](#): > > Would that destroy Facebook’s valuation? Maybe. I’m not worried about facebook’s valuation, but I am concerned about it’s use. It _is_ a useful platform. If they went to a paid subscription model, it would likely be far less useful. Google, too. How much are you willing to pay per search? > [@Jas09](#): > > But wouldn’t Facebook be a far better platform if rather than being paid for by advertisement (and thus monetized through your own addiction, heightened emotional state, and personal information) it was just paid for with cold hard cash like any other communications tool? Like newspapers, right? Except newspapers _are_ mostly funded by advertising. Tell me what mass media tool is _not_ funded by advertising of some sort. You got BBC, which is funded by the government, is that what you prefer? I’ve personally gotten pretty good value out of advertising on several mass media platforms, both digital and print. If you remove that advertising, you are not only weakening the platform, making it less useful to users, you are also making it less useful for small businesses that find them to be the best form of advertising that has ever existed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/148 "2021-01-14T18:14:33Z")
There are dozens, if not hundreds, of successful internet news sources (my favorite is Talking Points Memo, which has annual revenue in the $millions, IIRC) that demonstrate that you are wrong about this. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/149 "2021-01-14T18:15:47Z")
Is this just an assertion? Or do you have any notion of how that would actually work? So, say Parlor becomes pretty popular with the alt right, and has millions of users. If they refuse to sell, because then they would be beholden to the TOS of someone else, how are you suggesting that they would be “frozen out”? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/150 "2021-01-14T18:17:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A much better analogy would be like a conference call, where you might get kicked off the call for being disruptive. You can be upset that people don’t have to listen to you, but that’s really the other half of the idea of freedom of speech, is the freedom to not have to listen. You _cannot_ have one without the other. That’s a terrible analogy. On Twitter you can choose what to read and what to ignore (and block anyone you don’t want to hear from), and one person talking does not stop another from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/151 "2021-01-14T18:18:18Z")
Back in the day, I actually did run my own webserver, just for shits and giggles. It would probably take me less than an hour to get it back up and running, and have my own platform to say anything at all that I wanted to say. Now, back in the day, I was quite excited when I had a unique hit, as I usually went weeks without one, but that’s not censorship, that’s just not having an audience. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/152 "2021-01-14T18:19:44Z")
It’s a far far better analogy than that of being kicked off of the telephone network and no longer being able to make calls. No analogy is perfect, that’s why they are analogies. I think that mine is much more pertinent than the one I was comparing it too, however, in every way that is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/153 "2021-01-14T18:25:34Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Some would claim that so long as the weapon of shutting down expression is aimed at my enemy then that is all I need to know. Some recognize that the weapon that can be turned against my enemy when its owner sees it in their best interest to do so, can just as easily be used against me, when its owner sees it in their best interest to do so. And want controls placed on the weapons use before it is turned in that direction. If we wait until it is faced that way it is too late. They’re all private companies, so they can shut down or promote whatever the fuck they want, whether I (or anyone else) agree or disagree with the message or messenger. If Twitter drops Biden (or my crush AOC) like a rock tomorrow, you won’t hear me screaming about free speech or free expression. I happen to disagree with their suspension of @Kirtaner, for example, but it’s certainly their right to do so. > [@DSeid](#): > > Some here argue that there is no concentrated power to any worrisome degree. I at least am not convinced of that by the arguments made here. Since my focus is on the right of public companies to refuse to host this, I’ll stick to this one. **There is no concentrated power to any worrisome degree when it comes to available platforms to spread your message.** I won’t say that there are an infinite number of internet platforms, but I will say that the number of possible platforms on the internet is in the neighborhood of 340,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (and that even excludes possible subdomains), so I don’t think it’s particularly restrictive. On the other hand, there is absolutely a concentration of power over existent massive audiences. Nothing stops someone else from creating a massive audience other than appeal and inertia (and it happens all of the time), so that is also not a roadblock. If you believe that a person has an immediate right to a massive audience, then we’ll just agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/154 "2021-01-14T18:31:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Now, back in the day, I was quite excited when I had a unique hit, as I usually went weeks without one, but that’s not censorship, that’s just not having an audience. “We’ve banned you from the public square, but you’re welcome to set up your soapbox down in this deep dark mineshaft with only the rats to listen to you.” ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/155 "2021-01-14T18:34:09Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > right of public companies private companies, dammit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/156 "2021-01-14T18:35:45Z")
Who has been banned from the public square? I mean, the reason that my personal server never got any hits is because it contained almost no actual useful information for the public, and I didn’t really share it with anyone else. _I_ found it useful, as I could access certain things from anywhere. But you are not banned from the public square just because no one stops to listen. Seriously, look at the arguments that you are making here, they are all about the audience, not the voice. You have made absolutely no coherent argument that anyone is being prevented from speaking, only that they are not being supplied with a ready audience. And being given an audience has _nothing_ to do with freedom of expression. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/157 "2021-01-14T18:41:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And being given an audience has _nothing_ to do with freedom of expression. I disagree. Sjuppose you started to get lots of hits on your personal blog, which is largely composed of criticisms of the government. And the government then pressures your ISP to put chokes on your blog, to make it harder for people to access it. But you’re still free to post whatever you want. It’s just that the government has taken steps to make sure you won’t have an audience for your blog. No freedom of expression issue, because you can still post whatever you want? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/158 "2021-01-14T18:43:12Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And the government then pressures your ISP to put chokes on your blog, to make it harder for people to access it. That would be pretty specifically a matter of the government interfering with my voice. That is entirely different from people not caring to hear what I have to say. I’m not entirely sure how that’s even remotely relevant, TBQH. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/159 "2021-01-14T18:44:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That is entirely different from people not caring to hear what I have to say. Which is also entirely different from Jack Dorsey not caring to have other people hear what you have to say. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/160 "2021-01-14T18:44:59Z")
Is Jack Dorsey pressuring my ISP to put chokes on my blog? Is Jack Dorsey part of the government? I have no idea why you feel this is a rabbit hole that you wish to immerse yourself in, but I’m pretty sure I’m not interested in following you any further down it. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330/161 "2021-01-14T18:45:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It is far, far easier to create an internet platform than it ever was to start up an _actual_ newspaper. > > How long did it take Parlor to get up and running? Who is buying up the SDMB? Honestly, I’m not sure how true this is. I would imagine it’s actually probably easier to print up a newsletter than create a social media platform. For your specific question re: Parler, it got angel investment money and some quick backing by conservative commentators. They also got some money from the Mercers. It’s about two years old, but it’s not entirely clear how long it took to develop (probably not that long, the back-end stuff is all standard I think, and it’s hosted by Amazon Web Services, not any in-house hardware). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-medias-recent-bannings-a-freedom-of-expression-issue/930330.md?page=9)