# Are Social Security Numbers required? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314 "2000-01-21T20:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2000, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314/21 "2000-01-23T06:24:00Z")
Actually, **meara** , that SSA FAQ is lying. You are never _required_ to receive one cent from Social Security, no matter what your circumstances. You’re just required to pay the Social Security tax _into_ the system. 😉 Even [The Useless Pages](http://www.go2net.net/internet/useless/), which makes fun of every government-conspiracy-theory web page under the sun, calls the Social Security system a “pyramid scheme.” ---
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2000, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314/22 "2000-01-23T06:41:00Z")
Very true. Their handbook states that certain ministers can get an exemption by signing an irrevocable statement refusing all SS benefits. However, it goes on to say that non-religious employment of that minister will still be subject to normal SS witholdings. So a person is allowed to give up all benefits (in a legally binding way), but still has to pay in to a system that will never give him a dime??? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2000, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314/23 "2000-01-23T06:43:00Z")
Edlyn wrote: > [@](#): > > You may apply for a tax ID number to use instead of a SSN. There are a number of forms available on gov’t internet sites that you can print out. Check out the IRS site. I found form SS4, but that was only an application for an employer identification number and doesn’t seem like it can be used for an individual to get an ID number for his/her own tax returns. I also found form W-7, “Application for IRS Individual Taxpayer Identification Number”, but it’s not supposed to be used by U.S. citizens, U.S. nationals, permanent U.S. residents, or anyone who is _eligible_ to receive a Social Security Number. What form would I use if I were a U.S. citizen and I wanted a non-SSN tax ID number? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2000, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314/24 "2000-01-23T06:58:00Z")
meara wrote: > [@](#): > > So a person is allowed to give up all benefits (in a legally binding way), but still has to pay in to a system that will never give him a dime??? Well … no. The relevant passage in the Internal Revenue Code, section 3127, reads as follows: > [@](#): > > **Sec. 3127. Exemption for employers and their employees where both are members of > religious faiths opposed to participation in Social Security Act programs** > > (a) In general > Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter (and under regulations prescribed to carry out this section), in any case where - >    (1) an employer (or, if the employer is a partnership, each partner therein) is a member of a recognized religious sect or division thereof described in section 1402(g)(1) and an adherent of established tenets or teachings of such sect or division as described in such section, and has filed and had approved under subsection (b) an application (in such form and manner, and with such official, as may be prescribed by such regulations) for an exemption from the taxes imposed by section 3111, and >    (2) an employee of such employer who is also a member of such a religious sect or division and an adherent of its established tenets or teachings has filed and had approved under subsection (b) an identical application for exemption from the taxes imposed by section 3101, such employer shall be exempt from the taxes imposed by section 3111 with respect to wages paid to each of the employees thereof who meets the requirements of paragraph (2) and each such employee shall be exempt from the taxes imposed by section 3101 with respect to such wages paid to him by such employer. > > [IRC sections 3127(b) and 3127© omitted here for brevity.] IRC section 3101 is the law that imposes the social security tax on employees; section 3111 is the section that imposes the matching social security tax on employers.\* This law implies, as you pointed out, that any wages paid by an anti-Social-Security church to its anti-Social-Security minister would not be subject to social security tax, but any wages paid by anybody _else_ to that minister would be. However, I’m sure the minister is allowed to receive social security benefits when he retires that are based solely on the non-church wages he earned that were subject to Social Security tax. \*) Footnote: Yes, in case you didn’t already know, the amount shown as “FICA” on your paycheck stub is only _half_ the money that gets sent to the Social Security Administration in your name every payday. Your employer is paying an amount equal to your FICA Withholding as an “employment tax”. The same goes for Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314/25 "2000-01-25T03:05:00Z")
Tracer: I have been unsuccessful tracking down that info for you. I have looked at old bookmarks kept on a disk, but cannot locate the particular one I remember. ☹ What may have been possible a few years ago may not be anymore. Here is a link I found that you might find interesting: [FAQ of SSN](http://www.networkusa.org/fingerprint/page6/fp-ssnfaq.htm&ti=Social+Security+Number+FAQ&top=17625) Their mention of GATT, etc., certainly raised my eyebrow. I have had to search through GATT agreements before concerning PTO issues, but I just might again. My apologies. * * * You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. -Harriet Woods- ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314/26 "2000-01-25T03:12:00Z")
Drat! Try this [link](http://www.networkusa.org/fingerprint/page6/fp-ssnfaq.htm). * * * You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. -Harriet Woods- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-social-security-numbers-required/17314.md?page=1)