# Are Sociopaths Really "Charming"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 3, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543 "2010-01-03T21:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WhyWhyWhy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whywhywhy/32/7539_2.png) [@WhyWhyWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyWhyWhy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/21 "2010-01-04T00:11:22Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why is victims in scare quotes? Good catch! I wish it weren’t true but a good % of domestic abuse “victims” mimic real victims (just like some brightly colored non-poisonous snakes and frogs often mimic poisonous snakes and frogs). Again, I wish it weren’t true because it just makes things harder for the real, true victims. That said, it is a big, real problem. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/22 "2010-01-04T00:14:53Z")
Think Frank Abignale in Catch me if you can or James Bond. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/23 "2010-01-04T00:26:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Most serial killers are sociopaths, and they are not particularly noted for being charming. Not every serial killer could be described as such - but many of the worst had “charm”. In addition to those previously mentioned, there’s John Gacy, Randy Woodfield (the “I-5 Killer”), Gary Ridgway (the Green River Killer) and Michael Swango, a physician who charmed his way into several different residency programs (even after a felony conviction) and killed patients. Charm is part of [the standard criteria](http://www.ehow.com/about_5085250_signs-sociopathic-personality.html) of sociopaths/psychopaths: _“The most useful tool of a sociopath is charm. Sociopaths are able to turn on the smile or ake advantage of social situations to lure people into their web. Ted Bundy, for instance, would sometimes feign an injury like putting an arm into a sling to elicit sympathy. This charm is why some sociopaths, despite the personality disorder, can have marital relationships.”_ ---
**Author:** ![WhyWhyWhy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whywhywhy/32/7539_2.png) [@WhyWhyWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyWhyWhy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/24 "2010-01-04T00:26:57Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why is victims in scare quotes? I should edit my original post to “\*\*\*some/many \*\*\*domestic abuse victims” but don’t see the EDIT link. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/25 "2010-01-04T00:34:52Z")
The diagnostic criteria is based on someone who uses charm, manipulation etc to get what they want. So by definition they will tend to be charming as its part of the diagnostic criteria. There are however people who dont experience empathy etc who are not particularly ‘charming’. There are ongoing debates about the general utility of psychopathy as a diagnostic criteria. Generally though, being willing to lie at the drop of a hat without any guilt or remorse to get what you want can make it easy to be charming, superficially at least, and the person will have had years of practise simply by growing up at finding out what works better and what doesnt. So at the very least they will probably have tried to get good at it from a utility perspective, but may have failed due to impulse control issues, wrong assumptions, cognitive disabilities or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/26 "2010-01-04T00:42:04Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > One of his victims made it outside and to a police officer. Standing there naked and begging for help, Dahmer convinced the cop to help him get the poor man back into his apartment. > > That’s charming. > > Part of the magic is that they seldom assert anything, because they have no real self. They become a reflection of whoever they are talking to. They are a blank slate upon which we just naturally fill in what we want to see. The victim was a 14 year old boy and the police gave him back to Dahmer because they believed they were gay lovers and weren’t interested in helping the boy. Two of the officers were terminated and later reinstated after a lawsuit but the evidence was pretty clear - anti-gay remarks to the dispatcher, joking about reuniting the “lovers” and getting a delousing. I don’t see how it could possibly be evidence of Dahmer’s charm. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/27 "2010-01-04T00:44:53Z")
Here at the SD, you only get 5 minutes to edit. Better say it right the first time! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/28 "2010-01-04T00:49:17Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I think you’re right on the rest, but not Dahmer. Didn’t he have this really creepy kind of flat, almost emotionless, affect? Maybe. I thought that’s how he got all those men into his apartment, by being charming. ---
**Author:** ![WhyWhyWhy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whywhywhy/32/7539_2.png) [@WhyWhyWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyWhyWhy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/29 "2010-01-04T00:55:45Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Here at the SD, you only get 5 minutes to edit. Better say it right the first time! 🙂 Oh, that explains it! Thanks!! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/30 "2010-01-04T00:58:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Maybe. I thought that’s how he got all those men into his apartment, by being charming. Do you really have to be all that charming to pick up another guy at a gay bar? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/31 "2010-01-04T01:15:08Z")
“Charm” is a skill that can be learned. It doesn’t have to come naturally. I suffer from social phobia, and I’m cripplingly shy, but in the right context, I can come across as friendly, open, witty, and (on occasion) charming. I’ve _learned_ how to do that: I mimic what friendly people do. It takes effort, but I can pull it off at least some of the time. If I can convincingly fake relaxed friendliness, then a sociopath with enough smarts and motivation can certainly learn how to do it. _I_ have to suppress panic attacks and a natural inclination to run and hide, sociopaths don’t have that problem. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/32 "2010-01-04T01:29:37Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Of course, probably up to 20% of my patients are psychopaths. I’m wondering how many people are reading this without knowing that **Qadgop** works in a prison. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/33 "2010-01-04T02:03:16Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’m wondering how many people are reading this without knowing that **Qadgop** works in a prison. Here I thought he was a doctor for U.S. Congresspeople. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/34 "2010-01-04T02:08:27Z")
Somewhat off-topic: I’ve known and heard of many men who have disregarded the saying “don’t stick it in the crazy”, and pursue or continue relationships with women that have borderline personality disorder, because the personalities of “the crazy” are so irresistible. My side question for men who stayed in relationships with women that had BPD despite ongoing problems: why? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/35 "2010-01-04T02:10:07Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Here I thought he was a doctor for U.S. Congresspeople. The percentage would be higher if I was. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/36 "2010-01-04T02:22:41Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > My side question for men who stayed in relationships with women that had BPD despite ongoing problems: why? I can’t give a first person account sadly, but apparently crazy sex is crazy good. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/37 "2010-01-04T02:43:45Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > One of his victims made it outside and to a police officer. Standing there naked and begging for help, Dahmer convinced the cop to help him get the poor man back into his apartment. Wow, is this really true? ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/38 "2010-01-04T02:52:16Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Part of the magic is that they seldom assert anything, because they have no real self. They become a reflection of whoever they are talking to. They are a blank slate upon which we just naturally fill in what we want to see. Reminds me of the charming, laid-back serial-killer protagonist of _The Minus Man_, who says something like, “I take the natural momentum of a person and draw it towards me.” The whole movie is a series of his interactions with people who project onto him whatever they want him to be, and him good-naturedly (mostly) going along with it. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/39 "2010-01-04T03:02:23Z")
“Somewhat off-topic: I’ve known and heard of many men who have disregarded the saying “don’t stick it in the crazy”, and pursue or continue relationships with women that have borderline personality disorder, because the personalities of “the crazy” are so irresistible.” Speaking as a worker rather than direct experience. Some of te reasons they stay are fairly obvious - the people with the problem dont have it written on their foreheads, they say they need rescuing, they will say they cant live without you, etc etc. There can also be a level of emotional intensity, and brainwashing, ie when you’re in you’re the best thing in the world to them, when you’re out you’re ruining their lives. Done gradually over time it can condition people more than they realise to do what the person wants, because they ‘dont want to upset them’, and the standards get higher and higher. A lot of it is fairly standard abuse patterns. It can take a fair while to realise its them rather than the situation they claim they’re in and it can creep up on the person because the BPD person may be trying to stop it being like the last relationship mess. So the ‘this is nuts’ alarm might not sound too quickly, and you get your classic frog boiling in water kind of scenario. And of course the person may have their own reasons they dont leave relationships quickly in regards to self esteem or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543/40 "2010-01-04T03:07:11Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Do you really have to be all that charming to pick up another guy at a gay bar? LOL I guess not. Crazy people are sexy sometimes because they have a lack of inhibition in the way that sane people do not. If you’re like me and you like to hang out with artists and such a certain level of crazy goes with the territory. It’s alluring, and the sexcapades can be amazing. But then again I used to pick up lots of chicks with my crazy style, so maybe it was me who was the ‘borderline’, well, I guess in many cases it was both. I have trouble operating in a ‘mundane’ world though. I really chalk it up to the lack of inhibition. We all want to relax society’s inhibitions on some level, somewhere. And those of us who don’t, I guess, aren’t charmed by the crazy. But it’s the crazy ones with whom you wake up from your reverie and realize the bed is on the other side of the room. That doesn’t happen with the sane ones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-sociopaths-really-charming/523543.md?page=3)