# Are solid-state batteries the future? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 7, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183 "2019-06-07T20:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qwertol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Qwertol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwertol)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/1 "2019-06-07T20:37:22Z")
Is it really possible for solid-state batteries to revolutionise the battery market and replace lithium batteries? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/2 "2019-06-07T22:18:07Z")
I always understood ‘solid state’ to mean no moving parts. What parts move in a regular auto battery, or alkaline, of lithium? Of course, the electrons are moving at a molecular level, but that’s always true of electricity. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/3 "2019-06-07T22:31:02Z")
Do you mean supercapacitors? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/4 "2019-06-07T22:33:47Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > What parts move in a regular auto battery, or alkaline, of lithium? The electrolyte. In an auto battery it’s a liquid (sulfuric acid and water). In an alkaline battery, it’s a potassium hydroxide paste. In a lithium battery, it’s a lithium salt in some sort of solvent (exactly which salt and which solvent varies). The liquid in a lead acid battery can slosh around, so that is a “moving” part. The pastes and gels in other batteries don’t necessarily move so much, but they aren’t exactly a solid either. Solid state batteries have a solid electrolyte. There are several different solid state batteries out there, which use things like silver, glass, or some sort of ceramic for the electrolyte. I don’t know where the OP gets the idea that these will somehow revolutionize the battery market. Currently, solid state batteries are expensive to produce, and that shows no sign of changing any time in the near future. There are some formulas that show some potential promise, but nothing is anywhere near proven yet. So sure, it’s possible that one of these chemistries might take over and become the new big thing in battery technology. It’s also possible, and probably much more likely, that this will be yet another hyped up promise that fails to deliver, as is very common with new battery technologies. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/5 "2019-06-07T23:05:07Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I don’t know where the OP gets the idea that these will somehow revolutionize the battery market. This probably came out of the news today where [Toyota announced plans to unveil a new solid state battery next year](https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/toyota-pulls-forward-electrification-plan-eyes-solid-state-battery-next-year). ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/6 "2019-06-08T01:32:19Z")
Every once in a while, you hear about a battery that catches fire. Samsung had a rash of those in one of their smartphones a few years back, but it also happens with other devices, including EVs. From what I understand, the fires are caused by a short circuit through the electrolyte, which ignites the electrolyte. Solid state batteries either should not have such short circuits, or their electrolyte is not flamable, I’m not sure which. But supposedly they should not catch fire. There was some research released a month or two ago or so about the development of a water-based electrolyte, which would also be non-flamable. We’ll have to see which one of these is the better deal. (Whichever one is cheaper with a better energy density.) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/7 "2019-06-08T04:34:31Z")
Every few months, another article touts another battery process or composition which will double, triple, quadruple the amount of power a battery can hold. These announcements come and go and nothing really revolutionizes (revolts?) the battery industry, because new ideas that look good in the lab often don’t work well in practical applications. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/8 "2019-06-08T06:47:46Z")
I’ve been following this a little more closely than the other posters (or I’m more deluded than them - take your pick when choosing investment strategies). A few years ago, there was a breakthrough by Oak Ridge Laboratories with Lithium-Sulfur Solid State Batteries that was, different from most breakthroughs, actually something that could go into mass production: > **[ORNL, Solid Power sign exclusive license for lithium-sulfur battery tech | ORNL](https://www.ornl.gov/news/ornl-solid-power-sign-exclusive-license-lithium-sulfur-battery-tech)** > > OAK RIDGE, Tenn., Nov. 20, 2015—The Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Solid Power Inc. of Louisville, Colo., have signed an exclusive agreement licensing lithium-sulfur materials for next-generation batteries. The company... Within the last couple of years, a few other groups have announced similar products, globally, about one per region (China, EU, etc.). I believe that the first generations of these are seeing limited use in more specialized applications - military, space, etc. But, on the whole, unless someone discovers some property that makes them too dangerous for general/civilian use, we should probably expect them to start showing up on the market in the next 5-10 years. The two advantages that lithium-sulfur have over lithium-ion are that it seems to be able to store about twice the energy per unit of weight, and it shouldn’t spontaneously catch on fire. Lithium-ion: ~875,000 joules per kg Lithium-sulfur: ~1,800,000 joules per kg Assuming that no one finds any major issues with them, we should expect that they’ll have a significant impact on the market. Electric cars are just barely competitive at the moment, but have to contend with the weight of the battery and the fact that the battery could violently erupt into a chemical fire. If you halve that weight and lose the danger factor, it pretty well destroys gasoline, hydrogen, and any other competing fuel technology (IMHO). Gasoline has the problem that it’s a limited resource. Other fuels have the problem that the infrastructure isn’t in place to support them and it would take decades and billions (or trillions) of dollars to create it. Power lines already exist everywhere - including in peoples’ garages. And non-mobile power stations can be engineered to be cleaner and more efficient than a mobile one. In terms of keeping the Earth clean, generating power at big, industrial power stations will always give us the largest theoretical advantage/opportunity in terms of keeping things green. > **[Lithium–sulfur battery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93sulfur_battery)** > > The lithium–sulfur battery (Li–S battery) is a type of rechargeable battery. It is notable for its high specific energy. The low atomic weight of lithium and moderate atomic weight of sulfur means that Li–S batteries are relatively light (about the density of water). They were used on the longest and highest-altitude unmanned solar-powered aeroplane flight (at the time) by Zephyr 6 in August 2008. > Lithium–sulfur batteries may displace lithium-ion cells because of their higher energy density and ... My assumption is that the Toyota battery will just be another lithium-sulfur battery. Once someone shows that it works, it significantly reduces the search space for everyone else. You don’t need to “steal” technology to gain it, sometimes. You just need to know that there’s a working solution “off in that direction”. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/9 "2019-06-08T08:20:17Z")
Anybody know what solid state batteries you can BUY TODAY as a working commercial product? I mean either as a separate battery or as part of some other gadget. I only know of one. Prologium solid state batteries are available to buy right now. They have some great properties but have low specific energy and high cost per Wh. Solidpower has a mightly impressive hype-filled website but it is utterly unclear if they actually have commercial product shipping today, or are anywhere near to to doing so. John Goodenough had an interesting laboratory experiment where he built a few button-sized cells and measured some great properties. I bought the scientific article and it had very clear steps and recipes for what he had done. Should have been easy to reproduce for anybody in the field. In any case, it was a small laboratory sample. I try to follow this field too but I see very little concrete product shipping. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/10 "2019-06-08T09:25:14Z")
> [@Frankenstein\_Monster](#): > > Solidpower has a mightly impressive hype-filled website but it is utterly unclear if they actually have commercial product shipping today, or are anywhere near to to doing so. Solid Power are the ones who bought the Oak Ridge formula. They’re working with BMW and American car manufacturers to develop batteries for electric cars. I don’t think they’re working on something that you can buy to put in a cellphone or use as an old-style car battery, yet. Launching a new car takes years of development (both in terms of engineering and production, as well as safety testing). As said, I don’t think we can expect anything for another 5+ years. But, after going live with some cars (assuming that transpires), I would expect laptop and cellphone batteries to follow pretty quickly after. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/11 "2019-06-08T10:05:17Z")
Thanks **Sage Rat**. Yeah I had heard about that some time ago. I have heard of many (car) companies “working on” solid state batteries. VW and Quantumscape. Daimler with some unnamed companies (or I don’t remember). Ford also Solid Power. Dyson and Sakti3. Toyota had already announced solid state battery efforts many years ago (Google finds [this](https://www.autonews.com/article/20140127/OEM06/301279980/toyota-preps-solid-state-batteries-for-20s) news from 2014/2012). It’s slow going. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/12 "2019-06-08T18:05:44Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Every few months, another article touts another battery process or composition which will double, triple, quadruple the amount of power a battery can hold. These announcements come and go and nothing really revolutionizes (revolts?) the battery industry, because new ideas that look good in the lab often don’t work well in practical applications. The most recent one I’ve read of involved nanotube _flywheels_ of all things. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-solid-state-batteries-the-future/835183/13 "2019-06-08T18:22:11Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > I always understood ‘solid state’ to mean no moving parts. That is not the correct definition. The first usage of solid state for technologies (rather than chemistry/physics) was transistors. Transistors are solid-state; vacuum tubes also have no moving parts but are not solid-state. I think your definition is back-formed from solid-state drives vs. rotating hard disk drives.