# Are souls fireproof. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300 "2016-08-10T01:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/101 "2016-08-16T01:02:08Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Thanks Velocity. I really was hoping I wasn’t talking to the wall and that I could get this to the right people. > > What do you mean about the parts thaat are meant to be literally true? Do you mean the histories, which I agree with you on or are you talking the spiritual stuff and if the latter how do you know what is meant to be taken that way? Sorry for the late reply. There are some parts of Scripture that should be taken literally and some that shouldn’t; unfortunately, determining which is which can be impossible for some passages. Some parts, such as the verse in Proverbs “Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men (Proverbs 22:29)” are only meant to be axiomatic; there are, of course, many skilled people in the world who toil in obscurity. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/102 "2016-08-16T07:19:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sorry for the late reply. > There are some parts of Scripture that should be taken literally and some that shouldn’t; unfortunately, determining which is which can be impossible for some passages. Some parts, such as the verse in Proverbs “Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men (Proverbs 22:29)” are only meant to be axiomatic; there are, of course, many skilled people in the world who toil in obscurity. It’s impossible to determine which passages are meant to be taken literally and yet following the scripture correctly determines the fate of your eternal soul? To me this is where spirituality diverges from religion. Spirituality means you can feel the difference between right and wrong whereas religion has decided for you which passages are to be taken which way. They substitute the wisdom of their scholars from the word of God. I can understand how this would serve those who still seek redemption and can’t tell the difference but it becomes another human layer between them and the truth. Once you have accepted that the word is not literal, which it seems is the majority view, then you can start to wrestle with the concepts it wants you to understand which to me is the more important goal. Your spirituality is supposed to be a personal relationship with your creator. Churches serve a valuable service. They are there for fellowship and to foster the foundation needed to continue that personal journey of salvation. Like Jesus said “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” That’s a hugely valuable service to provide such a place on an ongoing basis. With such a diverse multiplicity of beliefs and with the need to provide structure for those new to or struggling with belief it’s no wonder that churches profess a strict definition of their rules to keep things accessible. It’s like the rules you learn in elementary school grammar are extremely important to follow but are not a crime to break for those who understand the rules and is breaking them for a reason. I believe that the intention is more important than the action as regards to rule breaking and there is no way for fellow humans to truly know this which is why it’s important not to judge the state of the persons relationship with their creator or why they made the choices they did. This is an old view that I’ve have and one I have forgotten in the era of more activist American churches pushing concepts I’m uncomfortable with. My reaction to this bothers me. I’ve let the squeeky wheel define the entire bicycle for me which is pretty much what I find objectionable when I hear churches doing this to people they deem sinners. Considering that I expect that a church is filled with sinners seeking a path to redemption it’s really wrong of me to judge their place on the path to enlightenment. I’m painting church members with the same broad brush that I don’t want to be painted with with predictable results. I can’t or haven’t been in any case able to change this but I can account for it. So when I was trying to seek understanding of those of a certain belief I came to see that on a whole things aren’t defined by these people and that in general things are working like they’re supposed to. If people in the church are in general wrestling with the same issues that I am and coming to beliefs similar to mine then I’d say things are working about like they should. What needs working on is my attitude and I’ve already written and edited the “but …” continuation but they are all just buts. It’s interesting to see what one well timed post can inspire in terms of thoughts. I won’t apologize for my attempt at humor while tweaking the nose of religion. If God didn’t want to be joked about then he really screwed up by giving me my sense of humor. I think God would understand that though because he would be able to know the intention and judge that. I can totally get where humans don’t have that luxury so I can get the response my jokes have. I’ll close with an anectdote. My brother in law I described earlier was one who found the concept of laughing about religion disrespectful and he didn’t approve of it. I took the opposite view that it didn’t mean that at all. Then I told him my version of this joke as an example > [@](#): > > Jesus, Moses and God were out playing golf one day. Jesus teed off first, and the ball flew straight over the fairway, landed in the green and rolled to within a couple feet of the hole. Moses hit second, and his ball also soared and landed close to the hole. Both looked over at God. > God took a few practice swings, then let loose on his ball. The ball flew off into the rough. Just then, a squirrel jumped over, grabbed the ball in his mouth and started running across the fairway. An eagle swooped down and grabbed the squirrel in its claws, but before it could get too far, a bolt of lightning struck the bird. The ball fell and a sudden gust of wind dropped it directly into the hole. > Jesus glared at God and said: “Hey, are you here to play golf or just screw around?” This got a laugh and a rise out of him at the same time. This was one of the times, as he’d say, I got him. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/103 "2016-08-16T14:04:55Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > To me this is where spirituality diverges from religion. **Spirituality means you can feel the difference between right and wrong** whereas religion has decided for you which passages are to be taken which way. They substitute the wisdom of their scholars from the word of God. I can understand how this would serve those who still seek redemption and can’t tell the difference but it becomes another human layer between them and the truth. > > Once you have accepted that the word is not literal, which it seems is the majority view, then you can start to wrestle with the concepts it wants you to understand which to me is the more important goal.\*\* Your spirituality is supposed to be a personal relationship with your creator\*\*. bolding mine This is all so self-centered, when we’re supposed to be God-centered. The truth of God and His relationship with us doesn’t depend on how you “feel”. He is Truth. It’s our job to understand His will and follow it through His grace, not through our feelings. This doesn’t mean that following Him and know He loves us doesn’t provide a feeling of content and happiness, but feelings don’t determine if something is moral. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/104 "2016-08-16T14:07:15Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > It could also be that he is an absentee dad pretty much. He told us the rules, showed us examples of what he can do if we break them, gave us free will then said, I’ll see you on judgement day. Good luck. Not at all. He is there with us every step and ready to help us with His grace, if we are open to it and ask for it. If He was leaving us on our own, He wouldn’t have become incarnate and died for us. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/105 "2016-08-16T14:59:42Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > bolding mine > > This is all so self-centered, when we’re supposed to be God-centered. The truth of God and His relationship with us doesn’t depend on how you “feel”. He is Truth. It’s our job to understand His will and follow it through His grace, not through our feelings Then it’s _his_ job to proofread that instruction manual of his, because it’s a holy mess right now. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/106 "2016-08-17T03:48:16Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Not at all. He is there with us every step and ready to help us with His grace, if we are open to it and ask for it. If He was leaving us on our own, He wouldn’t have become incarnate and died for us. Many millions of people have prayed for help, guidance, and grace…and not received it. This has actually led some theologians to claim that Jesus did not die for all of us, but only for the elect. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/107 "2016-08-17T17:58:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Many millions of people have prayed for help, guidance, and grace…and not received it. > > This has actually led some theologians to claim that Jesus did not die for all of us, but only for the elect. “Many millions”? I wonder how that claim could be validated. Anyway, just because God does not seemingly answer prayers in the way we want Him to does not mean He does not hear them, nor answer them. Read the book of Job and you will clearly see an example of that. As for the “theologians” statement I would have to conclude that anyone coming up with that conclusion are not “theologians” in any real sense. I am not sure what you mean by “elect”. Just who are the elect? Jesus DID die for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/108 "2016-08-17T18:24:05Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Jesus DID die for all of us. Patti Smith [begs to differ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxygqSTO1lQ). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/109 "2016-08-17T19:24:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then it’s _his_ job to proofread that instruction manual of his, because it’s a holy mess right now. And THE LORD said to Abraham: I, uh, I messed up making the penis. I’m gonna need you to do me a favor and cut a little bit off from the top. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/110 "2016-08-17T21:32:08Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > “Many millions”? I wonder how that claim could be validated. Anyway, just because God does not seemingly answer prayers in the way we want Him to does not mean He does not hear them, nor answer them. Read the book of Job and you will clearly see an example of that. Well, how about the millions of Christians who have died in fires, wars, by drowning, diseases, by crime, and so on. Either they did not pray for help…or they did pray and did not receive it. Do you seriously want to argue that not a single one of them prayed for help? And if the story of Job is an example of God answering prayers – by allowing Satan to torment the shit out of his victim! – God is showing a remarkable disregard for ordinary moral decency. > [@](#): > > As for the “theologians” statement I would have to conclude that anyone coming up with that conclusion are not “theologians” in any real sense. > I am not sure what you mean by “elect”. Just who are the elect? > Jesus DID die for all of us. No real Scotsman, then? If they don’t agree with your theology, they aren’t a real theologian? The doctrine of the elect is still around, and there is no shortage of Christian scholars who hold that Jesus died only for those elect. Don’t argue with me; argue with the churches that hold this doctrine. Do you think the Presbyterian Church is not “truly Christian?” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/111 "2016-08-17T21:35:38Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, how about the millions of Christians who have died in fires, wars, by drowning, diseases, by crime, and so on. Either they did not pray for help…or they did pray and did not receive it. How do you know they didnt get help? You dont always get what you ask for when you pray. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/112 "2016-08-17T22:25:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How do you know they didnt get help? You dont always get what you ask for when you pray. So the Christian guy who was in the midst of a fire prayed for help, and god gave him a rubber ducky? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/113 "2016-08-17T22:29:22Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > So the Christian guy who was in the midst of a fire prayed for help, and god gave him a rubber ducky? He got solace and the certain knowledge he was going to Heaven, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/114 "2016-08-17T22:39:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He got solace and the certain knowledge he was going to Heaven, perhaps. Would help him as much as a rubber ducky, but I get your point. You religious guys just think different than me, I’m more practical and would prefer to let appear some firefighters, but to each his own. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/115 "2016-08-17T22:47:50Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > No, the Bible lays numerous sins at the feet of the prior residents of Canaan, including various forms of incest, adultery, bestiality, homosexuality (let’s not being modern Western mores into this; we’re talking from a Biblical perspective of sin here), child sacrifice, sorcery and necromancy, that’s just from the verses that I could cite off the top of my head. Don’t forget the queue jumping, and using their cell phones at the movie theater. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/116 "2016-08-17T22:52:37Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Would help him as much as a rubber ducky, but I get your point. You religious guys just think different than me, I’m more practical and would prefer to let appear some firefighters, but to each his own. if you are a believer, solace and the certain knowledge he was going to Heaven is a great answer. If you are not, then you arent expecting firemen as a answer anyway. Miracles are very rare. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/117 "2016-08-17T23:15:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > if you are a believer, solace and the certain knowledge he was going to Heaven is a great answer. If you are not, then you arent expecting firemen as a answer anyway. > > Miracles are very rare. I still suspect that 99 % of religious folks who died in a fire thought ‘Fire! Get me outta here!’ rather than ‘All is well, I’ll be in heaven soon.’, except for all the true believers who got burned at the stake by other true believers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/118 "2016-08-17T23:20:50Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I still suspect that 99 % of religious folks who died in a fire thought ‘Fire! Get me outta here!’ rather than ‘All is well, I’ll be in heaven soon.’, except for all the true believers who got burned at the stake by other true believers. Sure of course they did. Again, miracles are very rare. Nowhere are miracles promised or expected. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/119 "2016-08-17T23:24:43Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Ah, so heavenly paradise will be somewhat like that enjoyed by a neutered dog, is that approximately correct? But wait, since no sustenance will be required for a dog in heavenly paradise, it would be like a dog with no desires or drives whatsoever. So heavenly paradise is basically like being a dead dog – is that a fairly accurate approximation? > > Actually, to be perfectly accurate, extrapolating from my previous submission, I now infer it to be like a dead dog that is class B fire resistant under standardized ASTM E-108 conditions. Basically a dead dog that won’t burn. > > This gives me faith. Go to mormon heaven, they’ll be lots of sex there. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300/120 "2016-08-17T23:38:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure of course they did. Again, miracles are very rare. Nowhere are miracles promised or expected. But why? Doesn’t love Jesus all his sheep? Why does he (or his father avatar) grant some more of them a miracle here and there, just for convenience and, well, good-will? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-souls-fireproof/762300.md?page=7)