# Are straight women less attractive than bi and lesbian women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 9, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227 "2012-04-09T03:54:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/142 "2012-04-09T17:02:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it doesn’t. > Again, this is not only wrong, it’s so full of holes that it’s impossible to take seriously. How doesn’t it? And I see no holes in the logic. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/143 "2012-04-09T17:03:17Z")
You seem to have missed an important point people have repeatedly made. Let me point it out for you again: > [@Fred13](#): > > …the majority of girls I know by far… The majority of girls **you know** is not **the majority of girls**. Do you see the distinction? If you don’t, then further conversation with you is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/144 "2012-04-09T17:05:01Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > I’ve worked on various TV shows over the years, also in local theater. I’m specifically talking about attractive young women who work in glamor industries. Most of them identify as straight, though one woman I knew called herself “the biggest dyke in Hollywood” even though she sometimes dated guys. Actresses, singers, extras, models, makeup girls, costumers. These categories can overlap, of course. > > My overall point is that there’s not really a “lesbian crisis” even here in sunny Sodom and Gomorrah. Women do this when they’re young and crazy. They probably won’t be doing it when they’re 35. > > I make no claims for middle America, for regular people, or anybody you’re likely to meet at the county fair. Hmm interesting, this reminds me about the concept of men on the down low. Is that similar to that? I heard that happens as well. But basically you are saying that any young attractive woman if having lesbian affairs? Or about the women in the glam industry? This is truly interesting to me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/145 "2012-04-09T17:05:20Z")
By the way, the Katy Perry song came out in mid-2008. The idea that this marks the start of a new generation or changed anyone’s sexuality is at least a goofy as anything else that has been posted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/146 "2012-04-09T17:05:25Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I think the rest of us are defining “real life” as meaning “real life on the planet earth.” > > I’ve been around a whole lot longer than you, and have known literally thousands of gay, bi, and straight women. I can honestly say that not one single idea of yours has any truth in reality. > > Do you also believe that all gay men are [drop-dead gorgeous](http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&biw=974&bih=941&tbm=isch&tbnid=xWE50Le3R6oNrM:&imgrefurl=http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2011/1128/Why-is-Rep.-Barney-Frank-retiring-VIDEO&docid=R-Q96ZtWmTZ5bM&imgurl=http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/1128-barney-frank-retiring/11091092-1-eng-US/1128-Barney-Frank-retiring_full_600.jpg&w=600&h=400&ei=_QWDT8S5JYGe8QSc7YDHBw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=463&sig=115393832862358866273&page=1&tbnh=161&tbnw=215&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:140&tx=96&ty=84)? (Actually we are. Barney Frank is the only exception.) You’ve misrepresented my statement (not Fred’s). My impression, based on actors and other Hollywood types I’ve worked with, is that many really good looking men are gay or bi. Sure, there are ugly gay guys, too. There may also be all kinds of sampling biases which make my impression inaccurate. It is something you can’t help but notice, though. Maybe the industry draws more gay men in general, or maybe gay men tend to be better actors, designers, dancers, singers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/147 "2012-04-09T17:07:50Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > You seem to have missed an important point people have repeatedly made. Let me point it out for you again: > > The majority of girls **you know** is not **the majority of girls**. Do you see the distinction? If you don’t, then further conversation with you is pointless. Yes I did, and I added that it’s not only me, but every person I’ve spoken to on this matter, which are all coincidentally between 18-25. You missed my post on that ai guess. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/148 "2012-04-09T17:08:52Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > You’ve misrepresented my statement (not Fred’s). My impression, based on actors and other Hollywood types I’ve worked with, is that many really good looking men are gay or bi. Sure, there are ugly gay guys, too. > > There may also be all kinds of sampling biases which make my impression inaccurate. It is something you can’t help but notice, though. Maybe the industry draws more gay men in general, or maybe gay men tend to be better actors, designers, dancers, singers, etc. I am shocked, SHOCKED! to hear that homosexuality is rampant in the American entertainment industry. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/149 "2012-04-09T17:10:04Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I am shocked, SHOCKED! to hear that homosexuality is rampant in the American entertainment industry. I know you are sarcastic, but I’m honestlynschocked that most women are doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/150 "2012-04-09T17:11:13Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > Hmm interesting, this reminds me about the concept of men on the down low. Is that similar to that? I heard that happens as well. But basically you are saying that any young attractive woman if having lesbian affairs? Or about the women in the glam industry? > > This is truly interesting to me. I wouldn’t say any, no. I would say some, with it being common enough that when I find out about a given woman’s lesbian fling, I’m not surprised. I’m talking about the glam industry, but also about young women who are on the periphery of the industry who work as bank tellers, dental assistants, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/151 "2012-04-09T17:12:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > By the way, the Katy Perry song came out in mid-2008. The idea that this marks the start of a new generation or changed anyone’s sexuality is at least a goofy as anything else that has been posted in this thread. Take it back to the Madonna and Btriney kiss then. What major celebrity kissed a girl first and liked it was the start of it, or at for women to come out about their true sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/152 "2012-04-09T17:12:17Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > Hmm interesting, this reminds me about the concept of men on the down low. Is that similar to that? I heard that happens as well. But basically you are saying that any young attractive woman if having lesbian affairs? Or about the women in the glam industry? No, he’s saying _some_ young attractive women make out with their friends, and some of them have sex with other women. You appear to have trouble distinguishing _some_ girls from all of them. Some girls play video games. Some don’t. Some girls work in retail. Some don’t. See how that works? > [@](#): > > Take it back to the Madonna and Btriney kiss then. What major celebrity kissed a girl first and liked it was the start of it, or at for women to come out about their true sexuality. What on earth makes you think Madonna and/or Britney enjoyed it? ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/153 "2012-04-09T17:14:16Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > I wouldn’t say any, no. I would say some, with it being common enough that when I find out about a given woman’s lesbian fling, I’m not surprised. > > I’m talking about the glam industry, but also about young women who are on the periphery of the industry who work as bank tellers, dental assistants, etc. Wouldn’t that encompass most women then, as the jobs you mentioned are average careers? That would mean women in most career fields are susceptible to this. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/154 "2012-04-09T17:15:12Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > Take it back to the Madonna and Btriney kiss then. What major celebrity kissed a girl first and liked it was the start of it, or at for women to come out about their true sexuality. You misspelled “Eleanor Roosevelt.” ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/155 "2012-04-09T17:16:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, he’s saying _some_ young attractive women make out with their friends, and some of them have sex with other women. You appear to have trouble distinguishing _some_ girls from all of them. > > Some girls play video games. Some don’t. Some girls work in retail. Some don’t. See how that works? > > What on earth makes you think Madonna and/or Britney enjoyed it? No he said that many young glam women and c steer women do this, which encompasses most women does it not, excluding unemployed women, which I’m guessing when getting employed do this also. The fact that Madonna is bisexual and has kissed other celebrities as well, also Brittney is bisexual. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/156 "2012-04-09T17:17:29Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I am shocked, SHOCKED! to hear that homosexuality is rampant in the American entertainment industry. Sure, it’s an obvious point, but then, I thought everything I’ve posted in this thread was obvious. Again, I don’t think there’s a “lesbian crisis.” And no orgies at PTA meetings. Girls hooking up with girls has become fashionable in the popular culture. I don’t know if it’s more prevalent, or just more visible. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/157 "2012-04-09T17:18:07Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > How doesn’t it? And I see no holes in the logic. The errors in this short sentence include: 1. You never hear about girls who don’t kiss girls. 2. There are no girls in the U.S. who won’t kiss other girls. 3. The idea that what you hear about reflects reality. 4. The idea that something can’t possibly exist if you’re not personally aware of it. So are you really going to sit here and say you can’t see the problem with any of what you’re saying? It doesn’t seem ridiculous to you that a derivative pop song from mid-2008 completely changed female sexuality? It didn’t occur to you that something can exist without your knowing about it, that what you see might not be universal, and that girls might sometimes pretend to do stuff (like kiss another girl or say they’re bi) just to get attention from a guy? None of this ever occurred to you? ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/158 "2012-04-09T17:19:40Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > And you are above the age of 25 or even the age of 35 I’m guessing which is what I would extend female bisexuality up to. Your experience is with older, more heterosexual women. I am American and your age. Of the hundreds of women I’ve been acquainted with, I’ve known two lesbians, one bi woman, and three or four more who might have been. I’ve seen exactly one kiss between women, both of whom were very straight and only doing it for giggles. My experience is the opposite of yours. Women of our generation are not 90% bi. I’m looking forward to your response to this. Edit: On preview, I should add that I am employed. I have not seen higher rates of homosexuality or bisexuality among employed women in our generation. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/159 "2012-04-09T17:21:06Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > You misspelled “Eleanor Roosevelt.” What? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/160 "2012-04-09T17:25:13Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > The burden of proof is to show evidence correct? Well the evidence you showed of heterosexuality I. Omen was already debunked earlier, so you still haven’t provided any. I gave you my evidence already. You want more? If so, show me your evidence first. You haven’t provided anything that qualifies as “evidence” rather than “unproven bullshit assertion”. As previously explained, claims based on your own personal experience or what you believe or remember to be your own personal experience do not count as supporting evidence for claims about general social phenomena. No previous evidence about heterosexuality has been debunked at all (although I don’t know what you mean by “you showed”, since my post that you responded to was my first post in this thread). There’s plenty of other valid evidence out there contradicting your assertion, though. For example, there’s [this 2011 report on the incidence of homosexuality](http://www.lgbttobacco.org/files/How-many-people-are-LGBT-Final.pdf), which estimates that something under 4% of all American adults identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual. Even if we expand the criterion to include all those who “acknowledge at least some same-sex attraction”, a criterion that has been surveyed for American adults between the ages of 18 and 44, it amounts to only about 11% of them. If only about one-tenth of **all adults under 45** acknowledge **any** same-sex attraction, it’s ridiculous to suggest that over **nine-tenths** of all female adults under 25 fall in that category. The demographics implied by your claim simply are not realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/161 "2012-04-09T17:25:38Z")
> [@FlyByNight512](#): > > I am American and your age. Of the hundreds of women I’ve been acquainted with, I’ve known two lesbians, one bi woman, and three or four more who might have been. I’ve seen exactly one kiss between women, both of whom were very straight and only doing it for giggles. My experience is the opposite of yours. Women of our generation are not 90% bi. > > I’m looking forward to your response to this. > > Edit: On preview, I should add that I am employed. I have not seen higher rates of homosexuality or bisexuality among employed women in our generation. Do you mean over 30 or my age of 24? That’s a big difference? Are you sheltered or do. You go out? You wouldn’t see this if you are inside all day. Also, if your area is one of those by ho ophobic, conservative regions then I’m guessing that could have swayed your results as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227.md?page=9)