# Are straight women less attractive than bi and lesbian women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 9, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227 "2012-04-09T03:54:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/162 "2012-04-09T17:27:05Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > What major celebrity kissed a girl first and liked it was the start of it Why would you assume celebrities have anything to do with this? I don’t think celebrities have ever invented anything with regard to sex - maybe $100 million divorce settlements. Madonna is straight as far as I know, and the MTV thing was not the first time she’d kissed another woman for attention. It’s entirely publicity-driven, and you’ve have to be very gullible to assume there was any other reason she (or anyone) would kiss Britney Spears on TV. > [@](#): > > at for women to come out about their true sexuality. Except they haven’t, and it’s not their “true sexuality.” Men and women might experience attraction a little differently and not everybody is _completely_ straight, but for practical purposes, the vast majority of people are straight - and being bisexual doesn’t make you an exhibitionist. If you think Katy Perry and Madonna and some girls who kiss their friends in a club when guys are watching are really bisexual - like I said, that’s really gullible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/163 "2012-04-09T17:29:35Z")
Look, **Fred** , I hate to break it to you, but you aren’t having trouble finding a girlfriend because women are all into other women. They’re just not into _you._ ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/164 "2012-04-09T17:33:29Z")
Who taught this guy how to use a computer? ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/165 "2012-04-09T17:35:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You haven’t provided anything that qualifies as “evidence” rather than “unproven bullshit assertion”. As previously explained, claims based on your own personal experience or what you believe or remember to be your own personal experience do not count as supporting evidence for claims about general social phenomena. > > No previous evidence about heterosexuality has been debunked at all (although I don’t know what you mean by “you showed”, since my post that you responded to was my first post in this thread). > > There’s plenty of other valid evidence out there contradicting your assertion, though. For example, there’s [this 2011 report on the incidence of homosexuality](http://www.lgbttobacco.org/files/How-many-people-are-LGBT-Final.pdf), which estimates that something under 4% of all American adults identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual. > > Even if we expand the criterion to include all those who “acknowledge at least some same-sex attraction”, a criterion that has been surveyed for American adults between the ages of 18 and 44, it amounts to only about 11% of them. > > If only about one-tenth of **all adults under 45** acknowledge **any** same-sex attraction, it’s ridiculous to suggest that over **nine-tenths** of all female adults under 25 fall in that category. The demographics implied by your claim simply are not realistic. I thought you were another poster, sorry. First up, there’s no,way that number is that low. Is that for. Some religious website? There’s been surveys saying 75% of girls are bi and others claiming more although I admit the validity to it could be off. I said it was the experience of everyone I’ve spoken to on this matter of female sexuality in multiple places. It’s always either most girls are bi, say they are bi, hook up with girls, etc. now maybe when women take these surveys they say heterosexual? I’m not sure but that is most likely the case. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/166 "2012-04-09T17:36:36Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > Who taught this guy how to use a computer? At least I say something productive instead of acting all high and mighty with no words of value to add. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/167 "2012-04-09T17:37:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Look, **Fred** , I hate to break it to you, but you aren’t having trouble finding a girlfriend because women are all into other women. They’re just not into _you._ I guarantee if you knew me in real life you would not say that. I’m not one of the guys who calls women lesbians for not dating me. This is based on observations. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/168 "2012-04-09T17:38:20Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Ah. Well, it could just be that more women are unafraid to admit it now, or it’s a fad, or whatever. > > I just don’t think anyone is bi or lesbian unless they identify as such. One lesbian experience, or even lesbian daydreams, does not a lesbian make. > > Hell, I’ve had sexual fantasies in which I was the man! Does that make me a man? Oh no, wait, it makes me a lesbian, because I am fantasizing about women. 🙂 Er…right? One lesbian experience? How about a few? How about if you go back and forth? Simple labels don’t work so well for complicated situations. You probably haven’t acted on your fantasies, and you might not like it much if you did. But the women I’m talking about do act on their fantasies, at least in the short term. Catch them ten years later, and they’re mostly [Volvo Driving Soccer Moms](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK_XWH7Ryd4&ob=av2e). ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/169 "2012-04-09T17:40:05Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > Do you mean over 30 or my age of 24? That’s a big difference? Are you sheltered or do. You go out? You wouldn’t see this if you are inside all day. Also, if your area is one of those by ho ophobic, conservative regions then I’m guessing that could have swayed your results as well. What part of ‘your age’ would imply that I’m over thirty? When I said ‘I am your age’, I mean that I’m\* your age\*. I live and work in a major metropolitan area. It’s a fairly liberal city as they go, so not overshadowed by a homophobic, conservative religion. I do actually go outside on most days. [QUOTE=Fred13] I said it was the experience of everyone I’ve spoken to on this matter of female sexuality in multiple places. [/QUOTE] Well, now you have spoken to me, and it is not my experience. Or are there other things that are going to disqualify my observations too? ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/170 "2012-04-09T17:41:00Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > There’s been surveys saying 75% of girls are bi and others claiming more although I admit the validity to it could be off. . Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/171 "2012-04-09T17:41:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why would you assume celebrities have anything to do with this? I don’t think celebrities have ever invented anything with regard to sex - maybe $100 million divorce settlements. Madonna is straight as far as I know, and the MTV thing was not the first time she’d kissed another woman for attention. It’s entirely publicity-driven, and you’ve have to be very gullible to assume there was any other reason she (or anyone) would kiss Britney Spears on TV. > Except they haven’t, and it’s not their “true sexuality.” Men and women might experience attraction a little differently and not everybody is _completely_ straight, but for practical purposes, the vast majority of people are straight - and being bisexual doesn’t make you an exhibitionist. If you think Katy Perry and Madonna and some girls who kiss their friends in a club when guys are watching are really bisexual - like I said, that’s really gullible. Madonna is bisexual. She has dated women before. Brittnet spears is bi. Celebrities influence the younger crowd which is why almost all,younger girls are bi. They saw it on tv, tried it to be cool, liked it, and are now,bi. Whethe they wanted to before or not is unknowwn, since women seem to ogle each other in public and claim it’s for competition all the time anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/172 "2012-04-09T17:41:40Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > First up, there’s no,way that number is that low. It is. > [@](#): > > Some religious website? If you look at the letterhead and read to the end of the survey, you’ll see this: > [@](#): > > The Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Law and Public Policy at UCLA School of Law advances law and public policy through rigorous, independent research and scholarship, and disseminates its work through a variety of education programs and media to judges, legislators, lawyers, other policymakers and the public. > [@Fred13](#): > > There’s been surveys saying 75% of girls are bi and others claiming more Post some links. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure but that is most likely the case. The most likely case is that your experiences (and your friends) don’t reflect reality. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/173 "2012-04-09T17:42:55Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > One lesbian experience? How about a few? How about if you go back and forth? > Simple labels don’t work so well for complicated situations. > > You probably haven’t acted on your fantasies, and you might not like it much if you did. But the women I’m talking about do act on their fantasies, at least in the short term. Catch them ten years later, and they’re mostly [Volvo Driving Soccer Moms](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK_XWH7Ryd4&ob=av2e). Please respond to my last post in response to you. I’m interested m your answer ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/174 "2012-04-09T17:45:06Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > First up, there’s no,way that number is that low. Is that for. Some religious website? Dude, no. That’s a [pro-gay](http://www.lgbttobacco.org/) anti-smoking website. If they wanted to be dishonest, they’d be more likely to INFLATE the number of homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/175 "2012-04-09T17:45:29Z")
> [@FlyByNight512](#): > > What part of ‘your age’ would imply that I’m over thirty? When I said ‘I am your age’, I mean that I’m\* your age\*. > > I live and work in a major metropolitan area. It’s a fairly liberal city as they go, so not overshadowed by a homophobic, conservative religion. I do actually go outside on most days. > > Well, now you have spoken to me, and it is not my experience. Or are there other things that are going to disqualify my observations too? Sorry you are right on the age part. Your experiences are different to mine. But, explain below’s experiences in the industry then, as well as my own? You are one person…I’ve spoken to at least 10 individuals on this. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/176 "2012-04-09T17:47:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It is. > If you look at the letterhead and read to the end of the survey, you’ll see this: > > Post some links. > The most likely case is that your experiences (and your friends) don’t reflect reality. I canno give a link, sorry as I came upon it randomly. I have no dea the site. I think it was based on internet responses though which may have skewed the results. Maybe on the Internet they were more honest. But,as I can’t provide a link I concede on that front. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/177 "2012-04-09T17:49:09Z")
> [@supergirl123](#): > > BTW: Most of the lesbians and bi-sexuals that I know of and see, are NOT even atttactive! I really don’t think we need to stoop to the OP’s level to make our point. cf. Gary T… > [@Gary\_T](#): > > In my experience, no. I’ve seen the whole range of attractiveness in both the straight women I’ve known and the lesbian women I’ve known. Same here. I’ve known lesbians who were _very_ pretty, lesbians who were until they let themselves go, lesbians who were about average, straight women who were average, straight women who were very striking, and straight women who were so gorgeous that I woulda done her in a hot minute had she not been married (and, well, straight). Still know most of these people, actually, and am friends with them. And hey, people tell me I’m attractive/striking too. I bow to their expertise. > [@](#): > > It may be that the age range and overall environment of the women you’re exposed to is such that they’re prone to thinking and talking this stuff more than most of the women I’ve known. I can’t help but believe, though, that when their personalities firm up a bit in a few years that statistically they’ll pretty much fit into the same patterns that have been observed for the many decades that this area has been studied. We’re talking college here, apparently, so I’d wager that a lot of these “bisexual” girls are “bisexual” for the sake of enticing/titillating the _ **guys** _ they are interested in. It’s not a reflection of their true identity, it’s a game/manipulation, and clearly it’s working (“all the guys talk about how hot bi girls are”), so they’re gonna keep doing it until they grow up, sometime post-college most likely. This was a phenomenon that was just starting to gain traction as I was leaving college, so I imagine that it’s pretty commonplace now. Those of us who are secure in our sexual identity don’t actually take those college kids or their pretenses seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/178 "2012-04-09T17:49:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It is. > If you look at the letterhead and read to the end of the survey, you’ll see this: > > Post some links. > The most likely case is that your experiences (and your friends) don’t reflect reality. Also, look at below’s experience as well. He’s saying it’s common for,straight women I careers also to do this, which I hope,you agree is most women. Unless, you,also believe women aren’t in careers yet? ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/179 "2012-04-09T17:52:14Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > I really don’t think we need to stoop to the OP’s level to make our point. cf. Gary T… > > Same here. I’ve known lesbians who were _very_ pretty, lesbians who were until they let themselves go, lesbians who were about average, straight women who were average, straight women who were very striking, and straight women who were so gorgeous that I woulda done her in a hot minute had she not been married (and, well, straight). Still know most of these people, actually, and am friends with them. > > And hey, people tell me I’m attractive/striking too. I bow to their expertise. > > We’re talking college here, apparently, so I’d wager that a lot of these “bisexual” girls are “bisexual” for the sake of enticing/titillating the _ **guys** _ they are interested in. It’s not a reflection of their true identity, it’s a game/manipulation, and clearly it’s working (“all the guys talk about how hot bi girls are”), so they’re gonna keep doing it until they grow up, sometime post-college most likely. > > This was a phenomenon that was just starting to gain traction as I was leaving college, so I imagine that it’s pretty commonplace now. Those of us who are secure in our sexual identity don’t actually take those college kids or their pretenses seriously. Not just college but in general. And according to you and a few others on here I’m now going to raise the age of most women being bisexual to 45, as older people in here a saying it was common in their time as well. Thanks for proving my point further. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/180 "2012-04-09T18:00:17Z")
> [@Fred13](#): > > Madonna is bisexual. She has dated women before. Yeah, I see she went out with Sandra Bernhard in the late '80s in between dating dozens of guys and marrying two of them. Maybe she had another fling or two with a woman, but her dating history is chronicled exhaustively online - and more to the point, you’d be foolish to assume that anything she does in public is done for anything other than attention, and you’d be foolish to think people only do stuff sexually because celebrities are doing it. > [@Fred13](#): > > I canno give a link, sorry as I came upon it randomly. Google it. > [@](#): > > I think it was based on internet responses though which may have skewed the results. Maybe on the Internet they were more honest. But,as I can’t provide a link I concede on that front. From a statistical standpoint, internet surveys are useless. > [@Fred13](#): > > Also, look at below’s experience as well. He’s saying it’s common for,straight women I careers also to do this, which I hope,you agree is most women. Unless, you,also believe women aren’t in careers yet? No, now you’re blustering by trying to make me think I said something that can be interpreted as backward or sexust. I didn’t, and you’ve either totally misunderstood his post or you’re misrepresenting it. He said very clearly that he’s not talking about everybody. He said bisexuality is probably more common among young women who are in the entertainment industry or trying to get into the entertainment industry. The entertainment industry is pretty gay-friendly, so it’s easy to believe you’d find more gay and bisexual people there than you would in the population at large. > [@Fred13](#): > > And according to you and a few others on here I’m now going to raise the age of most women being bisexual to 45, as older people in here a saying it was common in their time as well. Thanks for proving my point further. The stuff you’re saying is already totally wrong and unbelievable to anyone who thinks about it for even a minute. If you’re going to refuse to listen to people, they won’t want to talk to you in the first place. You’ve already been shown the real facts about this. Women who were in their 30s and 40s didn’t suddenly become bisexual because they saw Katy Perry or Madonna sing about it or kiss another woman. If they even noticed those things in the first place, they were already well set in their ways by then. ---
**Author:** ![Fred13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@Fred13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred13)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227/181 "2012-04-09T18:01:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The errors in this short sentence include: > > 1. You never hear about girls who don’t kiss girls. > 2. There are no girls in the U.S. who won’t kiss other girls. > 3. The idea that what you hear about reflects reality. > 4. The idea that something can’t possibly exist if you’re not personally aware of it. > > So are you really going to sit here and say you can’t see the problem with any of what you’re saying? It doesn’t seem ridiculous to you that a derivative pop song from mid-2008 completely changed female sexuality? It didn’t occur to you that something can exist without your knowing about it, that what you see might not be universal, and that girls might sometimes pretend to do stuff (like kiss another girl or say they’re bi) just to get attention from a guy? None of this ever occurred to you? You really don’t hear about that anymore. A truly believe that below the age of 45 there are vey, very few women who haven’t or didn’t want to or don’t. When it’s the only thing around then yea true. I agree that maybe most girls have always been bi,and that the lesbian scenes in the media made them act on it. So I guess it’s more correct to say that the majority of women have always been bi, and surveys taken showing such a low number are only shown because they don’t want to admit it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-straight-women-less-attractive-than-bi-and-lesbian-women/618227.md?page=10)